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> Blood magic, what are the real negative effects of blood magic?
limejello10512
post Jun 3 2008, 08:01 AM
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One of my players is playing a werewolf adept and we decided after innitiating that it would be very werewolfesque to give him the canabalize metamagic. He doesn't want to play an evil character, but we don't really see why devouring someone villanous is evil. Are there in game penalties I missed? I can't think of any actual negative effects.
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Screamin Demon
post Jun 3 2008, 08:22 AM
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Well...
It depends on what kind of game you are running. Generally it is assumed that thinking of your own, or any sentient species, as food would definitely fall to the darker side of 'evil'. Even if someone is villanous, he still gets the basic rights afforded by good guys to others of your species. Its not okay to hit girls no matter how hard they hit you first. But its your game, you need to set the morality bar and abide by it.
The best argument I would have against a cannibalizing shadowrunner is that it is definitely unprofessional, and would possibly generate a bad reputation because it might become the first thing people talk about when his name is brought up. Watch out for that freaky deaky people eating Xghoul.
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Shiloh
post Jun 3 2008, 08:33 AM
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Blood magic can be said to be inherently risky, at a metaphysical level. "Just one bite" can soooo easily become "Sapient being! Nom nom nom!".
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Stahlseele
post Jun 3 2008, 09:14 AM
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well, it is yucky and leaves stains O.o
i'd probably sooner let a ghoul character use that meta-magic than a were-wolf though o.O
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ornot
post Jun 3 2008, 09:16 AM
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QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 3 2008, 09:33 AM) *
Blood magic can be said to be inherently risky, at a metaphysical level. "Just one bite" can soooo easily become "Sapient being! Nom nom nom!".


There should be a LOLcat for that.
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phantom
post Jun 3 2008, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 3 2008, 02:33 AM) *
Blood magic can be said to be inherently risky, at a metaphysical level. "Just one bite" can soooo easily become "Sapient being! Nom nom nom!".


LOL!
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Ryu
post Jun 3 2008, 10:05 AM
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The negative effect is that you are a cannibal. LoneStar will double the intensity of its work on your crimes because of the potential PR fallout. Individual officers will do their best because they do not want to be eaten on the job, especially not after they saw the face of the forensic mage discovering what you did.
Plus, "Connect the cases where hearts got eaten" is so easy that it should get you points for distinctive style.
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Malicant
post Jun 3 2008, 10:40 AM
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Consuming the lifeforce of a living being is always corrupting you, no matter if you are trying to do a noble deed. Also, to learn how to do that, you need to have severel bumbs in your head that make you... less nice.

Blood Magic is like using the Dark Side of the Force. It might look like you are simply throwing lightning, which is not evil, but actually you are throwing energies that look like lightning fueled by your hatred. Which is Evil. And so is any application of Blood Magic. It's part of the game/setting.

You are free to change that in your game of course, but even than the Canibalize mechanics will suck big time. You're not even really canibalizing anything with it. Who rote that stuff, anyways?
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Ryu
post Jun 3 2008, 10:55 AM
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I´d either seriously expand the time that power works (remove karma expenditure and limit sum of points to magic), and/or allow you to eat the flesh and reap the benefits at a later point.
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Malicant
post Jun 3 2008, 11:01 AM
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I personally hate Karma costs for temporary boni. One reason why I never liked Anchoring.
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Fuchs
post Jun 3 2008, 11:05 AM
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Fellow Runners can tend to kill blood mages (out of principle, or to kill/kidnap them for the bounty).
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apollo124
post Jun 3 2008, 02:11 PM
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Yeah, the Dunkelzahn's will bounty on blood mages is a big downside, to me. And while it may be slightly more good to eat a drug dealer than a nun, it's no less evil.
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ArkonC
post Jun 3 2008, 02:36 PM
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Only because we label it as evil, animals eat each other all the time, no one goes around saying they're evil...
Even human sacrifices aren't always considered evil by the people being sacrificed...
In SR term, I think you could even make the case that toxics aren't evil per se...
This isn't Star Wars where the source of power defines if it's good or evil, indipendantly of intent or action, it's shadowrun where everything is a shade of grey and doing the wrong thing for the right reasons doesn't make you evil, at most it makes you tragic and misguided, but you may be percieved as evil by others...
My point is that if you and your player agree there is no intrinsic evil in blood magic, then he could use it and not be evil, if you decide blood magic is intrinsically evil, well, you get my point...

2 more of my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
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Malicant
post Jun 3 2008, 02:46 PM
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Blood Magic is Evil. It is not natural, it is not social, it is not a question of morals or ethics. It simply is Evil. Not because you sacrifice someone (you can actually sacrifice yourself), but because you use life-energy-stuff to empower your magic.
A Blood Mage that has never used and will never use that techniques on other living beings is still a sick, twisted SoB as long as he uses those techniques.

QUOTE
This isn't Star Wars where the source of power defines if it's good or evil
Actually, Magic is a lot like the Force. Shamans for example can go toxic just by being exposed to a polluted forrest. Makes you wonder, nay?
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ArkonC
post Jun 3 2008, 02:52 PM
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First of, you might try reading "The Perception of Evil" on P.136 in Street Magic...

So you are saying that your moral judgement is superior to everyone's who doesn't agree with you?
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Shiloh
post Jun 3 2008, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 03:46 PM) *
By CanonBlood Magic is Evil. It is not natural, it is not social, it is not a question of morals or ethics. It simply is Evil. Not because you sacrifice someone (you can actually sacrifice yourself), but because you use life-energy-stuff to empower your magic.
A Blood Mage that has never used and will never use that techniques on other living beings is still a sick, twisted SoB as long as he uses those techniques.

Emphasis for fixing... Canonically, Blood Magic has a cost: it eats your soul and eventually you will lose whatever scruples and morals that initially restrained you from sucking the soul out of anyone convenient. If a bounty hunter doesn't get you first.

In canon

If it ain't like that in your game, that's fine, but from a metagaming point of view, metamagics that powerful need a downside, and you should probably explain to any veteran player that not all the assumptions they bring may be true; Canonically, there's lakes of evidence that Blood Magic screws you up: you can't handle it - it's not just a cold.

(Cookie for other oldtimers who spot the reference).
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Fortune
post Jun 3 2008, 02:57 PM
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Can a Shapeshifter (which is a totally separate species, unrelatd to metahumanity) technically be called a cannibal for eating metahumans? Wouldn't he have to eat other shapeshifters for that label to apply?
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Shiloh
post Jun 3 2008, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Jun 3 2008, 03:57 PM) *
Can a Shapeshifter (which is a totally separate species, unrelatd to metahumanity) technically be called a cannibal for eating metahumans? Wouldn't he have to eat other shapeshifters for that label to apply?

Depends if you're calling them a cannibal for eating sapient beings or eating their own species...
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Malicant
post Jun 3 2008, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (ArkonC @ Jun 3 2008, 04:52 PM) *
First of, you might try reading "The Perception of Evil" on P.136 in Street Magic...

So you are saying that your moral judgement is superior to everyone's who doesn't agree with you?

To say Blood Magic is Evil is not moral judgement. It is simply stating a fact. If a Priest sacrifices 1000 people to his gods, it is murder, moral judgement can be made, yadda, yadda. If he sacrifices those people and uses their life/death to empower a spell, it is Blood Magic, and that is Evil. It's neat, clean, simple. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[edit]I should also mention, that "perception of evil" does not really apply. You do not turn twisted, because someone thinks your practices are evil and you don't switch from being twisted to not twisted when going from a place that thinks of you as evil to a place that actually like what you do. Also, a Blood Mage is always twisted, even if he is, say a vampire and no one would blame him for using blood in his magic, or maybe a Aztlani Priest, who sacrifice people for the good of the nation.

QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 3 2008, 04:54 PM) *
Emphasis for fixing... Canonically, Blood Magic has a cost: it eats your soul and eventually you will lose whatever scruples and morals that initially restrained you from sucking the soul out of anyone convenient. If a bounty hunter doesn't get you first.

In canon

If it ain't like that in your game, that's fine, but from a metagaming point of view, metamagics that powerful need a downside, and you should probably explain to any veteran player that not all the assumptions they bring may be true; Canonically, there's lakes of evidence that Blood Magic screws you up: you can't handle it - it's not just a cold.

(Cookie for other oldtimers who spot the reference).

Well, well, isn't that Captain Obvious speaking. Talking about Blood Magic in a Shadowrun forum should make it pretty clear that we are actually talking about Shadowrun, making it moot to mention In Canon. *grumble, grumble* It totally ticks me of when people pull the "Oh? We are talking about canon. Well, in my game everything is different." manuever.

QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 3 2008, 05:08 PM) *
Depends if you're calling them a cannibal for eating sapient beings or eating their own species...

Shapeshifter that eat humans are not cannibals. Shapeshifters that eat Shapeshifters (of their own kind) or the animals they are based on would be cannibals. Cannibalism is the act of eating your own species, not the act of eating something with the capacity to think.
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Eryk the Red
post Jun 3 2008, 03:58 PM
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Cannibal not being a technical term sort of makes debating what is technically a cannibal moot. It connotes someone who eats people, but as lingo it is based in a world with only one (apparent) sentient species. Anthropophagy is a technical term analogous to cannibalism. It refers to eating humans. A shapeshifter who eats humans is debatably a cannibal, and definitely anthropophagous. A shapeshifter who eats shapeshifters is perhaps a cannibal, but not anthropophagous, because shapeshifters are not human.
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Shiloh
post Jun 3 2008, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 04:26 PM) *
Well, well, isn't that Captain Obvious speaking. Talking about Blood Magic in a Shadowrun forum should make it pretty clear that we are actually talking about Shadowrun, making it moot to mention In Canon. *grumble, grumble* It totally ticks me of when people pull the "Oh? We are talking about canon. Well, in my game everything is different." manuever.

Hey, don't swat at me when I'm agreeing with you and trying to stop people from pulling that very maneuver without saying so. What's the use?

QUOTE
Shapeshifter that eat humans are not cannibals. Shapeshifters that eat Shapeshifters (of their own kind) or the animals they are based on would be cannibals. Cannibalism is the act of eating your own species, not the act of eating something with the capacity to think.

[shrug] Is sapientovore a word? Would people understand what it means? Are there enough Shapeshifters to make the dictionary definition of cannibalism viable as a metamagic; thought they were preeeety rare? The thing that gives Cannibalism its power is the sapient life force, not the psychological hit of violating the "don't eat your own" taboo, as you've already pointed out. Sure the *dictionary* says cannibalism is eating your own species, so a rat (normal, RL rat) eating the corpse of another rat is a cannibal, but is that what is meant by the term cannibal as applied to metamagic? Did the designers even think that players would be allowed to play shapeshifting initiated blood magic adepts? Can't put my hands on the book, but does it define Cannibal as needing to eat the flesh of metahumans or the flesh of their own species?
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ArkonC
post Jun 3 2008, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 05:26 PM) *
To say Blood Magic is Evil is not moral judgement. It is simply stating a fact. If a Priest sacrifices 1000 people to his gods, it is murder, moral judgement can be made, yadda, yadda. If he sacrifices those people and uses their life/death to empower a spell, it is Blood Magic, and that is Evil. It's neat, clean, simple. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Saying something is good or evil is by definition a moral judgement...
Is capital punishment good or evil?
Are Insect Spirits good or evil?
What if a hero sacrifices himself to save a town/country/world, a la Diablo (Tal Rasha)?
Which reminds me, I didn't think the sacrifice (for the metamagic) has to die per se, so I get a coven; we cut up ourselves a bit to power our wheat growing spell, no one dies and in a few we can feed the whole village, evil or not?
My point is that murder is only evil because we say it is...
In SR it is up to the GM to decide if absolute evil exists and if blood magic subscribes to this...
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 05:26 PM) *
[edit]I should also mention, that "perception of evil" does not really apply. You do not turn twisted, because someone thinks your practices are evil and you don't switch from being twisted to not twisted when going from a place that thinks of you as evil to a place that actually like what you do. Also, a Blood Mage is always twisted, even if he is, say a vampire and no one would blame him for using blood in his magic, or maybe a Aztlani Priest, who sacrifice people for the good of the nation.

While as a person, I agree that human sacrifices are evil and have no place in modern society, I'm sure you can find people to argue the point...
I guess I just enjoy being the devil's advocate...
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hyzmarca
post Jun 3 2008, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 10:26 AM) *
To say Blood Magic is Evil is not moral judgement. It is simply stating a fact. If a Priest sacrifices 1000 people to his gods, it is murder, moral judgement can be made, yadda, yadda. If he sacrifices those people and uses their life/death to empower a spell, it is Blood Magic, and that is Evil. It's neat, clean, simple. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I would argue that putting their deaths to practical use would be less evil. Needless to say, you're confusing fact with opinion.

QUOTE
. Also, a Blood Mage is always twisted, even if he is, say a vampire and no one would blame him for using blood in his magic, or maybe a Aztlani Priest, who sacrifice people for the good of the nation.

It is not necessary for a practitioner of Blood Magic to be Twisted.

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Malicant
post Jun 3 2008, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (ArkonC @ Jun 3 2008, 06:20 PM) *
Saying something is good or evil is by definition a moral judgement...
Unfortunatly I am not talking about morals, how many times do I have to repeat myself? It is not about good or evi, it is about Blood Magic being Evil. Metaphysicly, actually evil. It is not evil, because people percieve it so, it simply is. Christ, that's really not so difficult.

QUOTE
Is capital punishment good or evil?
Irrelevant in this discussion.

QUOTE
Are Insect Spirits good or evil?
Nope, they simply are invaders from another dimension.

QUOTE
What if a hero sacrifices himself to save a town/country/world, a la Diablo (Tal Rasha)?
Not good, or evil, plain stupid. The sacrifice did not accomplish anything in both cases.

QUOTE
Which reminds me, I didn't think the sacrifice (for the metamagic) has to die per se, so I get a coven; we cut up ourselves a bit to power our wheat growing spell, no one dies and in a few we can feed the whole village, evil or not?
You seem not to be reading what I wrote. I already stated that murder is not a nessecity of Blood Magic. Does not change that it is a twisted practice, i.e. Evil.

QUOTE
My point is that murder is only evil because we say it is...
I don't say so. Murder happens and is usually a waste of resources (human and otherwise), but evil? Nah. Also, I don't think anyone who wasn't demented ever said that murder is good. justified, maybe, but never good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE
In SR it is up to the GM to decide if absolute evil exists and if blood magic subscribes to this...
Yeah, and here we are right in the middle of the "In my game" manuever.

QUOTE
While as a person, I agree that human sacrifices are evil and have no place in modern society, I'm sure you can find people to argue the point...
Human sacrifices are not the point here. Sacrificing someone is not the same as using the Sacrifice Metamagic.

QUOTE
I guess I just enjoy being the devil's advocate...
Whishful thinking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 3 2008, 06:25 PM) *
It is not necessary for a practitioner of Blood Magic to be Twisted.

Okay, why is it in the twisted section? For giggles? If it was NSC only, they could have mentioned Blood Magic before the twisted section. Also, you might want to read page 139 in Street Magic again, the part about Blood Magic, where it pratically screams in the readers face that it is a twisted metamagic. Yeah, I think Blood Mages are twisted by default.
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Ancient History
post Jun 3 2008, 05:07 PM
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Okay, let's talk about Evil and evil for a moment.

Evil with a capital E doesn't exist in Shadowrun. There are no entities whose sole purpose and choice is to be Evil, even the Horrors were presented as more fleshed-out than that. No one and nothing is born or created Evil. This isn't a game that restricts characters to specific alignments, from a purely mechanistic viewpoint there is no Evil. Whether you, or your character, or the GM, or anyone else in the game believes that Evil exists is something else again. Evil is not an objective fact, at least not in Shadowrun. Players and characters are free to believe whatever they want, but when we're having an out-of-character discussion like this, it's important to know where the lines are drawn. Anybody who thinks differently should go read The Perception of Evil, p.136, Street Magic.

What you do have in SR is the evil that metahumans do, to themselves and others. A bit more mundane than the idea of absolute Evil, but a damn sight grittier and more realistic too. The Awakening might have exposed the Sixth World to a few new evils, but whether they're any worse than what metahumanity has managed to do to itself and others is largely a matter of opinion.

Magical threats and AIs are easy to misconstrue as Evil because they are alien to metahumanity-but just because their actions are seen as evil doesn't make them Evil, with all its connotations. Insect spirits are a popular subject, usually drawing parallels to the movie Alien. If you accept the invae as a natural (or supernatural) part of the Sixth World, then the way they pursue their life cycle is not in itself innately Evil - indeed, Target: Awakened Lands is at pains to present a different interpretation. That doesn't mean that the bugs or bug magicians aren't evil, or use evil ends to achieve their means.

Blood magic is almost entirely a metahuman practice, and an example of the evil done by Man. Whatever disparate hints there are of its origins, the fact is that no-one forces blood magic on anyone else; it has to be learned, and it has to be used. In theory, at least, it is just another tool in a magician's magical arsenal, neither good nor evil until applied in such a fashion.
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