Blood magic, what are the real negative effects of blood magic? Options

[hyzmarca]

I still don't get what would be considered evil if not Horrors. Devils and Demons for sure look exactly like horrors.

The demons and devils of one religion are often the benevolent gods of another. Nothing justifies genocide quite as well as "they're Evil", after all.

[Malicant]

The Horror Hunter. Dread Iota. Gnashers. Ristul. Looking at Horrors at critters out for food is just more evidence that you really have noc lue what you're talking about.

Dude, the actual Horrors book claims that the only thing Horrors have in common is their desire to feed (on what percisely veries of course). I feel like I'm save with my knowledge about them. Because, you know, the friggin' book says so. If the book is wrong, than, well everything about them is wrong and all discussion is moot.

[Muspellsheimr]

Your original claim was Horrors are not diverse. Now, we have clarified that they all have the desire to feed in common. Every animal on the planet has two desires - feed & mate/breed. You seem to imply that life on this planet is not at all diverse because it all has something in common.

[hyzmarca]

Your original claim was Horrors are not diverse. Now, we have clarified that they all have the desire to feed in common. Every animal on the planet has two desires - feed & mate/breed. You seem to imply that life on this planet is not at all diverse because it all has something in common.

It just proves that God is an unimaginitive GM. The fact that we don't have people who are able to survive without eating or breathing but are instead compelled to strip naked and sing Shipoopi every time they see a yellow traffic light is just sad.

[Apathy]

Don't worry, I'll start singing right away for the sake of saving God's GM reputation.

[Malicant]

Your original claim was Horrors are not diverse. Now, we have clarified that they all have the desire to feed in common. Every animal on the planet has two desires - feed & mate/breed. You seem to imply that life on this planet is not at all diverse because it all has something in common.

I did not say they are not diverse. I rather said (or tried to) they don't have much actual depth (kind of) because their only motivation is food. No Horror builds himself a weekend retreat, or goes out with his buddies to talk about the latest sports event and drink some ale, or reads a book for the joy of it. Everything they do is driven by their hunger with the single aim to actually satisfy it. Even the most boring regular human guy has more to himself than that.
The only one deviating from that that I am aware of if Verji, who instead of being driven by hunger is driven by his hatred for dragons.

Horrors are really simple creatures (not stupid-simple, but one-dimensional-simple). And, as Fuchs said, if they are not evil, or Evil, than nothing is. And that is kind of totally retarded. Because in a game of magic it is rather dull, not dystopian, if you cannot even call Horrors evil (or Evil, like I care what words you use).

[Zak]

Horrors are really simple creatures (not stupid-simple, but one-dimensional-simple). And, as Fuchs said, if they are not evil, or Evil, than nothing is. And that is kind of totally retarded. Because in a game of magic it is rather dull, not dystopian, if you cannot even call Horrors evil (or Evil, like I care what words you use).

You can call them all you wish.

Just be aware you are making a moral judgement and someone else might disagree. Without any one of you being wrong.

[Malicant]

What moral judgment? WTF? What is it with you people?

"Uh, he said something is evil, that is a moral judgment, which is bad"

Ok, Horrors are evil, not moral judgment evil, just.fucking.evil. There, I said it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Ancient History]

I did not say they are not diverse.

Yeah, you did:

If by diverse you mean all the same, just with slightly diffrent degrees of blood shed, then we agree.
I like Horrors, but really, diverse is something they are not.

I rather said (or tried to) they don't have much actual depth (kind of) because their only motivation is food.

Well, now you have a second word to look up on Wiktionary.

But let's focus for a second on your argument: you suggest that Horrors lack depth. I submit you don't know enough about Horrors. Since you're so fond of the Horrors sourcebook - I'm assuming it's your sole source of knowledge on the subject - flip to Ysrthgrathe. Leaving aside for the moment your completely erroneous statement that Horrors are only motivated by corrupting Name Givers so they can feed (as evidenced by the Horrors that don't prey on Name Givers), the big Y is an example of a Horror whose motivation and means have grown beyond any initial necessity.

[Malicant]

Yeah, you did:

No, not in the meaning he implied, thank you very much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ok, it is really getting weird. Either, I am to stupid to read (unlikely, but possible), or my copy of Horrors is broken, because nothing implies that Big Y has anything other to do than corrupting people to feast on their misery.

Also, Horrors is not my only source, it is just the best, because, you know, it is about Horrors. Crazy, I know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ancient History]

See, I think it better to look at every sourcebook that deals with Horrors - hey look, they're on my shelf over there - and just whip out as many examples as I need to refute your claims, which I have. At this point, you're either being willfully ignorant or desperately trying to cover your ass and your inadequate language skills.

[darthmord]

To corrupt something it must first be 'pure', so if you could describe 'pure' magic to me, and tell me how blood magic corrupts it? Maybe explain to me how blood willingly sacrificed could cause such corruption?
The blood being used need not be from a sentient being, so what happens if our blood mage works in a slaughter house, and simply makes use of all the cows being killed for food? Line up 10 cows in a row, slit all their throats at once, thats about 140 boxes of physical damage... or ~34 dice to soak with. Won't change the quality or quantity of the food, but the ability to use that magic to keep the animals healthy while they grow, or using it to grow the cows food... Not really seeing an issue here?
I can see PETA having a bird, but aside from that, no problem.

Throw this in... in a book (fiction) I read a while back they had a blood sacrifice to help power a spell. The sacrifice was an elderly woman who was sickly and frail. She wanted her last contribution to her tribe to be something that helped them prosper so she volunteered to be sacrificed. She was hailed as a hero by her tribe and she herself felt it was only proper since her tribe gave her life and she was simply paying back that debt.

Was that Evil or Good?

[Sweaty Hippo]

Good or evil aside, from what I heard of the horrors, they sound like a threat to everyone. As such, it is incentive that nobody will trust them. For example, Wendigos are known for betraying and eating their companions. Whether you are a law-abiding warrior with a soft spot for the downtrodden, or a cold-blooded thug, you'd want nothing to do with such a character, much less ally with them.

[Mordinvan]

I think that horrors much like many things in SR are neither good nor evil, but only different. If plants were sentient what would dandylions think of rabbits?
"OMFG that beast is running around eating all us helpless plants without mercy or regret. They live for nothing more then to feed themselves and make more of themselves."

Now if anyone here seriously thinks rabbits are evil, get yourself some .44cal aspirin.

[weblife]

Blood Magic is related to the most powerful magic you can perform. You are messing with Essence of life, not merely filtering scraps of ambient magic into small effects.

In the Earthdawn setting, this sent great ripples through the Astral, risking the calling of astral predators, like the Horrors. This was the main reason that other types of magic was explored and usually cast through a limiting matrix, buffering your essence from being broadcast across the astral.

Not to mix the settings again, but the stigma vs. Blood Magic is this ancient adage, that it calls worse things. Its not evil in itself, its just helps destroy all life as we know it, by calling horrors from the depths of astral space.

In SR4 we do not use spell matrices but cast on the fly, probably because magic levels are low enough for us to handle that, and most likely because nothing tends to come eat us when we does this, again because of the low ambient magic keeping serious astral predators away.

Blood Magic however, is the most powerful astral beacon metahumanity has available. If anything is likely to call bad things to our parts, this is it.

The dragons seem to know this, and thus Dunkie want to suppress the use of blood magic as much as possible, to delay the inevitable rising of magic levels to a degree where the Horrors once again can cross over and sustain themselves locally.

IMO toxic's are a weaker cousin of horrors, the van-guard of our collective bad conscience made manifest. What we fear, horrors become. There are strong parrallels between toxic spirits and the description of the horrors. Its only the scale and power thats different.

Thus Blood Magic is not evil per se, but it will destroy the world as we know it if unchecked.

[Dr Funfrock]

In terms of downsides to Blood Magic, I'd agree that "it calls the monsters from the depths of time and space" rates pretty highly. Evil or not, the fact remains that life will be very unpleasant for the rest of us if the Horrors decide to move in and make Earth their new home. As I understand it these guys rate as worse than Bugs for "cack-thy-trousers" factor. I mean let's face it, Dunkie must have had good reason for putting a bounty on blood mages, and the same goes for Lophwyr constantly taking pot shots at Aztechnology for no apparent economic gains. The great dragons, in general, are not huge fans of blood magic, and they know a lot of stuff that we don't.

So if you're fine with breaking reality, turning Earth into one giant food-hall for Cthulhoid entities, and being hunted by the most powerful political, magical, and physical entities on Earth, go ahead and use some of that ol' blood magic. Then head on down to Aztlan, and see if they'll give you a job.

[Zak]

The great dragons, in general, are not huge fans of blood magic, and they know a lot of stuff that we don't.

Yes, but why? From my perspective it is because blood magic challenges their power and authority over the world. Dragons and horrors are both vicious predators feeding on - among other things - metahumans.