Mana Static - Query, Instant area effect spirit killer? Hmmm... Options

[Dr Funfrock]

This has come up now a few times in a game I'm running, and I wanted to know what other people's take on this spell / ruling is.
One of my players has the spell Mana Static. He regularly uses this spell to throw up a static at 1 less than his Magic rating, and then drops it the next round. During the 1 round of rating 4 background count all spirits of force 4 or less immediately go pop, making it a ridiculously effective AoE spirit killer. He doesn't use spirits himself, so he's happy to just hose everything around himself any time someone starts using spirits. Even if they aren't force 4 or less, they still get ganked, because they are now force 1 or 2.

As I understand the rules on permanent spells, that means they go in to effect the moment you cast it, but the effects revert if you stop sustaining the spell before it has attained permanence. Therefore when he stops sustaining the spell the effects immediately dissapate. The spirits, however, have already been disrupted, so they can't come back.


Can someone please tell me if I've got this wrong, or if Mana Static really is just that broken.
Yes, I'm aware that the Drain is brutal, but for a spell that can basically one shot a lot of encounters, it's so worth it.
(Note; Also, I'm not asking for house rules, because I can easily make those up myself. I just don't like to house rule stuff unless I'm sure the original rules don't work).

[Jaid]

that sounds about right. note that any spells he himself may be sustaining are subject to that effect, and that further the spirits would have to all be close enough and on the appropriate plane for that to be a problem.

otherwise, yes. mana static really does do horrible things to spirits.

[Cthulhudreams]

it's a great spell with a great use vs a particularly powerful threat.

But yes it really is that good, and is in contention for 'best spell in the game' along with heal and a few other bits and pieces.

[Fortune]

My spellslinging characters tend to use Slaughter Spirit for this type of 'spiritual house cleaning'. Just as effective, with a lower Drain Code.

[Cthulhudreams]

I can never justify taking non multi-purpose spells because I tend to max out my allocation. Horses for courses I guess.

[Fortune]

Normally I feel the same way, but I make an exception for Slaughter Spirit. It is just too damn useful for taking out Spirit packs without harming or even inconveniencing the rest of the party.

[Daier Mune]

My spellslinging characters tend to use Slaughter Spirit for this type of 'spiritual house cleaning'. Just as effective, with a lower Drain Code.

you don't have to specify spirit type? thats useful.

[Fortune]

you don't have to specify spirit type? thats useful.

Nope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

These variants of Death Touch/Manabolt/Manaball (p. 197, SR4) are designed to target a particular species or metatype:
One Less Ork, Slay Dragon, Slaughter Spirit, and so on. The target of each spell is designated by the spell formula.

[Dr Funfrock]

and that further the spirits would have to all be close enough and on the appropriate plane for that to be a problem.

otherwise, yes. mana static really does do horrible things to spirits.

Same plane? Hadn't considered that.
Surely background count affects both the physical and astral plane at the same time?

[Mordinvan]

Nope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes I can see why you'd take it then... it does kinda do the job of banish, but only cooler

[Dr Funfrock]

Also, Fortune, re: Slaughter Spirits, it's cool and all, but not the instant death effect that Mana Static is. Against Slaughter Spirits each of the spirits gets a resistance roll using Willpower + Counterspelling (which some spirits have naturally, and others may get from their summoner), and then they get to soak against the damage. It hurts, but it's not an automatic kill against anything of low enough force.

Also, an expansion on my original query... what happens when someone casts Mana Static at a higher force than their own Magic? As far as I can tell, the spell goes off, spirits all go pop, his magic drops to 0, the spell fails, his magic goes straight back to it's full value, then... ummm... PROFIT!
Basically this would seem to remove the need to even stop sustaining the spell, since it does it's work and then kills itself, and it lets you instakill Force 10 spirits (assuming soft-capped starting mage) if you're willing to take the drain. Those same force 10 spirits would be rolling anything from 10 to 20 dice to simply swat a Slaughter spell, depending on who's providing them Counterspelling, if any. Still, 10, with Edge, is plenty.

Force 10 spirit is a party killer. Sure, the mage collapses from the drain, but he just one-shotted a party killer as a starting character, with absolutely no way for it to resist the effect.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm pretty sure you actually need to roll the required number of successes too, don't you?

[Mordinvan]

Also, Fortune, re: Slaughter Spirits, it's cool and all, but not the instant death effect that Mana Static is. Against Slaughter Spirits each of the spirits gets a resistance roll using Willpower + Counterspelling (which some spirits have naturally, and others may get from their summoner), and then they get to soak against the damage. It hurts, but it's not an automatic kill against anything of low enough force.

Also, an expansion on my original query... what happens when someone casts Mana Static at a higher force than their own Magic? As far as I can tell, the spell goes off, spirits all go pop, his magic drops to 0, the spell fails, his magic goes straight back to it's full value, then... ummm... PROFIT!
Basically this would seem to remove the need to even stop sustaining the spell, since it does it's work and then kills itself, and it lets you instakill Force 10 spirits (assuming soft-capped starting mage) if you're willing to take the drain. Those same force 10 spirits would be rolling anything from 10 to 20 dice to simply swat a Slaughter spell, depending on who's providing them Counterspelling, if any. Still, 10, with Edge, is plenty.

Force 10 spirit is a party killer. Sure, the mage collapses from the drain, but he just one-shotted a party killer as a starting character, with absolutely no way for it to resist the effect.

You're a sick man... uhh dragon? and I like it.

[Muspellsheimr]

and then they get to soak against the damage.

Direct Combat Spells do not allow a Damage Resistance test after the initial Spell Resistance.

Mana Static is potentially the most powerful spell in the game, but due to it's high drain value, and limited use, that does not mean it is overpowered. It's limitations, in addition to only affecting magical objects/creatures, include it hindering the caster, & any other awakened character in the group.

And finally, if your starting mage can reliably obtain the 10 hits required to disrupt such a high-force spirit, one of two things is happening: said player is cheating, or your game is so high powered that it should not matter. Mana Static creates background equal to Spellcasting Hits, not Force.

As for Mana Static vs. Slaughter Spirit - I can multi-cast two or three Slaughter Spirit's in a single turn, for overall less drain than a single Static, and kill off low-force spirits just as well - without the hassle of hampering/damaging your self or party.

[Fortune]

Also, Fortune, re: Slaughter Spirits, it's cool and all, but not the instant death effect that Mana Static is. Against Slaughter Spirits each of the spirits gets a resistance roll using Willpower + Counterspelling (which some spirits have naturally, and others may get from their summoner), and then they get to soak against the damage. It hurts, but it's not an automatic kill against anything of low enough force.

No soak afterward! It's a limited Manaball, and as such there is only the one resistance test (Willpower + Counterspelling if available).

Another one of the benefits of Slaughter Spirit is its amenity to multi-casting. Overlapping two lower Force spells has proved very useful, without causing much in the way of Drain, at least in my experience.

[Muspellsheimr]

Beat you, Fortune

Muahahaha.

[Kerberos]

Direct Combat Spells do not allow a Damage Resistance test after the initial Spell Resistance.

Mana Static is potentially the most powerful spell in the game, but due to it's high drain value, and limited use, that does not mean it is overpowered. It's limitations, in addition to only affecting magical objects/creatures, include it hindering the caster, & any other awakened character in the group.

And finally, if your starting mage can reliably obtain the 10 hits required to disrupt such a high-force spirit, one of two things is happening: said player is cheating, or your game is so high powered that it should not matter. Mana Static creates background equal to Spellcasting Hits, not Force.

As for Mana Static vs. Slaughter Spirit - I can multi-cast two or three Slaughter Spirit's in a single turn, for overall less drain than a single Static, and kill off low-force spirits just as well - without the hassle of hampering/damaging your self or party.

But you won't be nearly as effective against that force 8 spirit with counter spelling.

[Dr Funfrock]

I'm pretty sure you actually need to roll the required number of successes too, don't you?

Excellent point. I'd forgotten that part. Still, with a decent edge pool it's theoretically doable... not nearly as much of a "One shot kill" though, since you're relying on a good roll. On the other other hand it definitely retains it's facility as an AoE spirit mob killer.

Direct Combat Spells do not allow a Damage Resistance test after the initial Spell Resistance.

Another good point in favour of Slaughter. I'd not considered that.

As for Mana Static vs. Slaughter Spirit - I can multi-cast two or three Slaughter Spirit's in a single turn, for overall less drain than a single Static, and kill off low-force spirits just as well - without the hassle of hampering/damaging your self or party.

This I have to contend. Three Slaughters gives all of the spells +2 DV, meaning you're soaking F/2+3 x 3, versus F/2+4 once, and you have to split your Spellcasting dicepool between 3 different spells, meaning your net hits are going to suck. Since net hits are all that matter for resistance, the spirits are likely going to ignore all three effects, and take no damage.

On the other hand, the hits rather than force thing means that an average starting mage is unlikely to muster the hits needed to take out force 5+ spirits, which does reign in the spell a little. It's the instant death against force 4 or less that annoys me.


Another point I'd like to bring up again, as it got missed earlier: Does plane matter? Since background count affects both the astral and material planes, surely it doesn't matter whether you cast the Mana Static in one or the other, you'll still disrupt any spirits, and really piss off any mages lurking in astral.

[Fortune]

Beat you, Fortune

Muahahaha.

Yeah yeah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But methinks you snuck in and added that last bit about multi-casting when I turned my back. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But you won't be nearly as effective against that force 8 spirit with counter spelling.

Force 8 Spirits don't grow on trees. Even rarer are Force 8 Spirits with Magical Guard.

But they can still be brought down through judicious use of spells. You aren't going to be getting 8 hits on your Spellcasting test in any kind of regularity (requires a Dice Pool of 24 and a minimum of a Force 8 spell) to bring down a Force 8 Spirit in one shot with Mana Static, and if you don't get it in one shot, it can move out of the AoE, via a number of means.

[Muspellsheimr]

I admit, the multi-casting part was an edit - but it was before I refreshed the page and saw your post below mine. So it still counts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Fortune]

This I have to contend. Three Slaughters gives all of the spells +2 DV, meaning you're soaking F/2+3 x 3, versus F/2+4 once, and you have to split your Spellcasting dicepool between 3 different spells, meaning your net hits are going to suck. Since net hits are all that matter for resistance, the spirits are likely going to ignore all three effects, and take no damage.

What you are not seeing is you can cast 3 Force 5 Slaughter Spirit Spells, each with a modified DV of 5 (for which I can use my full Pool to resist each time), versus 1 Force 8 Mana Static (the minimum needed for the Spirit level being bandied about) with a DV of 8.

I would personally just go for only two Slaughter Spirit spells, at either Force 5 or Force 7, but three works if you can pump your Drain Resistance Pool.

Splitting the Dice Pool is not as crippling as you might think. You only split the base (Attribute + Skill) Pool, and then add any and all modifiers to each new Pool as applicable. It isn't hard to stack on positive modifiers to one specific category of spells if you really try. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[FrankTrollman]

Mana Static does not need to be cast on the same plane as the targets, because it doesn't actually target the targets. It targets the area, and then the background count incidentally kills spirits. That makes it the best spell.

-Frank

[Ryu]

I´d cast Slaughter Spirit at Force 11 before I´d cast Mana Static 8. Larger AoE, still lower drain, a couple of net hits is enough for anything. Mana Static is great, but less so for straight-out killing spirits. Shutting them down once they enter a certain room while killing the small ones is more like it.

[Dr Funfrock]

What you are not seeing is you can cast 3 Force 5 Slaughter Spirit Spells, each with a modified DV of 5 (for which I can use my full Pool to resist each time), versus 1 Force 8 Mana Static (the minimum needed for the Spirit level being bandied about) with a DV of 8.

Mana Static isn't a DV. It creates background count, which reduces a Spirit's Force directly. The Force 8 spirit becomes a Force 0 spirit, and pops instantly (double check the rules in Street Magic, this is how background count works for spirits, whether they are in physical or astral, as Frank just confirmed).
Yes, getting enough hits is the tricky part there, but I'd still argue that against lower level spirits (around Force 4) mana static is just too good a house cleaner too pass up. A Force 4 Spirit still has a chance of resisting a Force 4 Slaughter, whereas it can't do anything against Mana Static, and as has been previously mentioned, Mana Static has the advantage of not wasting a slot on a spell that isn't general purpose.

Slaughter is way cooler, but I'm playing devil's advocate here and making the case for Mana Static being rather overpowered.

[Magus]

If I recall Mana Static is not a permanent spell. It disappates 1 force level/hour.
It is sustainable but I do not know if you can quicken it with Karma. This has been discussed before in other threads. I do not remember if a consensus was ever found.