[X] My Assistant

[Mordinvan]

I can easily see where you are comeing from on that one. Only problem is what happens when you sustain a spell on a plane which is flying?
your actual location is changing very rapidly with regards to the biosphere....

[WeaverMount]

Relying on Edge expenditure when making calculations and comparisons (especially when it is only being applied to one side of the equation) just seems wrong to me.

You absolutely right. It is really lopsided to spend edge then your opponent can't. But there is no defense test versus background count for the spirits to spend edge. Hence Mana Static getting called the one-shot nut punch. With the Slaughter Spirit I basicly said "well a starting mage doesn't have the dice they need to one shot an F8 and if they try edge the spirit likely counters with edge".

[Fortune]

That's not what I mean (which I suspect you know). I mean that, from what I saaw, you were comparing a non-edge enhanced Slaughter Spirit with Edge-enhanced Spirit Mana Static. Not quite fair, in my opinion.

No starting mage that I can envision can one shot a Force 8 Spirit with Mana Static [i]with any consistency[i]. You need a Dice Pool of 24 (and the same sized Dice Pool to resist Drain). You can throw Edge into the mix, but that is a depletable resource, and can't be relied on in every situation.

[Fortune]

Only problem is what happens when you sustain a spell on a plane which is flying?
your actual location is changing very rapidly with regards to the biosphere....

I'm not concerned with the spell's or caster's relative location to the earth, or any of that. Mana Static is trying to permanently (semi anyway) affect an actual physical location. Being able to move the spell around is like being able to change the subject of a Heal spell at will (for whatever reason). It makes no sense to me.

[W@geMage]

Also don't forget that casting multiple spells allows multiple counterspelling attempts, so those Slaughters could end up severely weakened.
The Mana Static has only 1 roll to spend Edge on, so could give more of a bang than attempting multiple damage spells.

[Ryu]

I'm not concerned with the spell's or caster's relative location to the earth, or any of that. Mana Static is trying to permanently (semi anyway) affect an actual physical location. Being able to move the spell around is like being able to change the subject of a Heal spell at will (for whatever reason). It makes no sense to me.

I do not think you get to move the AoE of Duration:P spells. I think they tried to reference Duration:S spells, and forgot that Duration:P spells are sustained for some time. This one may be for the FAQ. (Disclaimer: This opinion is formed based on the german wording)

[Tarantula]

I do not think you get to move the AoE of Duration:P spells. I think they tried to reference Duration:S spells, and forgot that Duration:P spells are sustained for some time. This one may be for the FAQ. (Disclaimer: This opinion is formed based on the german wording)

I also agree with this interpretation. The text for moving a sustained spell could be referring to if the spell is type: S and not if you are currently sustaining it. This would make it so P spells would be immobile once cast.

[Fortune]

Also don't forget that casting multiple spells allows multiple counterspelling attempts, so those Slaughters could end up severely weakened.
The Mana Static has only 1 roll to spend Edge on, so could give more of a bang than attempting multiple damage spells.

I think a little too much attention is being paid to multiple spells. As has been mentioned by several people, if a spellcaster has the Pool to reliably cast a Force 8 Mana Static at maximum effect and then shrug off the resulting Drain, then he has the Pool to cast a whopping, high-Force Slaughter Spirit (or even Mana Bolt if dealing with only one Spirit), which would only require one net hit to put the Spirit down.

I do not think you get to move the AoE of Duration:P spells. I think they tried to reference Duration:S spells, and forgot that Duration:P spells are sustained for some time. This one may be for the FAQ. (Disclaimer: This opinion is formed based on the german wording)

That was my point all along. I hope it is clarified in a future Errata, or at least the FAQ.

[WeaverMount]

A clarification here would be nice.

Actually I really didn't know which way you were taking it but if you want to compare the millage from a point of edge in both these spells, Mana static will come out on top again. 1 point of edge on Mana static give you the DP it takes to 1-shot the spirit with average rolls. Also no one on the opposite team can counter in kind. What's more if you are spending Edge you can get around the hit cap, meaning you can cast the spell at a moderate force with a moderate drain. SS, on the other hand, does not have the punch to 1-shot the spirit without overcasting or multi-casting, edge or no. If they the spirit has spell casting available the multi-casting is shut down with or without edge. If not you have to spend 2 points of edge against a vulnerable target to have a good chance of a one shot. For a single casting of an F10 SS to be expected to shot an F8 spirit you need the follow conditions: caster spends edge, and defender does not spend edge or does not have counter spelling. Then you get to eat, what, 6P drain?

Edge for both spells
multi-cast SS: shut down
overcast SS: shut down, 50-75% wounds, one-shots expected. (Depending on defender use of edge and counter spelling)
Mana Static: one-shots expected with crippling debuff on a low roll (Depending on nothing)

So the of the options that have a shot, one will vary wildly depending on the situation and has 6P drain, the other always has a chance for a 1-shot, and in some situations a bad merely ravages the target as opposed to slaying out right ... for a drain of 5S.

plus mana static does more than kill spirits.

[WeaverMount]

A clarification here would be nice.

Actually I really didn't know which way you were taking it but if you want to compare the millage from a point of edge in both these spells, Mana static will come out on top again. 1 point of edge on Mana static give you the DP it takes to 1-shot the spirit with average rolls. Also no one on the opposite team can counter in kind. What's more if you are spending Edge you can get around the hit cap, meaning you can cast the spell at a moderate force with a moderate drain. SS, on the other hand, does not have the punch to 1-shot the spirit without overcasting or multi-casting, edge or no. If they the spirit has spell casting available the multi-casting is shut down with or without edge. If not you have to spend 2 points of edge against a vulnerable target to have a good chance of a one shot. For a single casting of an F10 SS to be expected to shot an F8 spirit you need the follow conditions: caster spends edge, and defender does not spend edge or does not have counter spelling. Then you get to eat, what, 6P drain?

Edge for both spells
multi-cast SS: shut down
overcast SS: shut down, 50-75% wounds, one-shots expected. (Depending on defender use of edge and counter spelling)
Mana Static: one-shots expected with crippling debuff on a low roll (Depending on nothing)

So the of the options that have a shot, one will vary wildly depending on the situation and has 6P drain, the other always has a chance for a 1-shot, and in some situations a bad merely ravages the target as opposed to slaying out right ... for a drain of 5S.

plus mana static does more than kill spirits.

[Jaid]

edge only bypasses net hits with edge dice. and only when used before the dice are rolled. which means now you need a huge edge attribute as well as high magic. it's really not likely to let you lower the required force of the mana static spell by more than 1-2.

[Fortune]

Actually I really didn't know which way you were taking it but if you want to compare the millage from a point of edge in both these spells ...

No, I don't want to compare Edge use on either. I don't think it should be a factor in the comparison, as it is not a reliable resource.

Without Edge, Mana Static is not nearly as useful, because of the extremely high 'hit' requirement. As I said above, a person capable of consistently casting a Force 8 Mana Static at maximum effect (and then shaking off the Drain) could also cast a killer Force 11 Slaughter Spirit for less Drain.

plus mana static does more than kill spirits.

I have readily admitted that Mana Static has its uses. My only concern in this thread though, has been with its utility as a 'multiple Spirit killer'. In my opinion, it is not the ultimate spell for that particular purpose.

[WeaverMount]

First you said it wasn't fair to spend only one way, so I gave a different example. Then you said you meant the other only one way so I gave a third example. Now you are saying that edge is just unfair. Personally, I think handing F8 spirits and overcast spells specifically designed to kill you is exactly when edge is worth considering. So yes if you say that we can't use edge, and the spirit doesn't have counter spelling, then will SS: occasionally whiff, usually put a really big hurt on the spirit, and almost never one shot it. Mana Static will basically never fail out right, Almost always debuff to the point that the rest of your team can do stuff, and never 1 shot it. Now for the Drain you are looking at 4 or 5 S or 6P IMO the fact that SS has fringe results and MS basically doesn't is an even trade. Of the mid land expected results I still feel mana static wins. Taking ItnW from 16 to 8 is huge. Hell even just cutting it to the point that HE grenades can hurt the thing is huge.

So to tight wrap it up MS is better at rocking low to mid force spirits. If we make the assumptions you want (which I see no reason to) MS has lighter drain and is marginally better in admittedly subjective ways. I think facing F8 spirits is exactly the time to use edge. If you let the caster use edge, MS is the clear winner. IMO anything that it is worth it to put a F8 spirit on it's worth it to get counterspelling as well. If the spirit has counterspelling MS is the clear winner.

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As a question people are saying that edge has to be used in a specific way to by pass the force limit. My book just says "edge dice" are allowed to exceed force cap. Did I miss an errata or a precise definition of "edge dice"

[Cthulhudreams]

Man, who cares. It is 100% the case that slaughter spirits is the most effective option for killing spirits on the same plane as you. Mana static is however capable of killing spirits on both planes, and can shut down mages, but has a higher drain code for the cost.

So slaughter spirits is the more specialist niche spell, and mana static is a flexible generalist option at the cost of less effectiveness in the 'killing spirits' role, but much more utility.

Trying to pursade anyone that SS w/AOE is less effective than MS at killing materialized spirits is insane, but I think many people would agree that the anti mage effects and general utility of MS make it worth strong consideration over SS. Given I can only take 8 spells at char gen, I'd stick with MS over SS every time.

[Jaid]

As a question people are saying that edge has to be used in a specific way to by pass the force limit. My book just says "edge dice" are allowed to exceed force cap. Did I miss an errata or a precise definition of "edge dice"

edge dice are the dice from your edge. most people generally allow that to include exploding 6's regardless of whether they came from your edge originally or not.

see page 67 for this. in particular, the edge dice (they are called that explicitly) are listed as being separate from the rest of the dice pool.

also note that in the section the awakened world, the removal of the cap on hits equal to force is explicitly called out as being *only* the edge dice. if that meant the whole dice pool when you spend edge, that would be completely nonsensical.

[WeaverMount]

Ok rather than call me insane would you like to point how i'm wrong? I spell out all my mechanics and assumptions explicitly. Just because something is specialized doesn't mean that it IS the best even if it SHOULD be the best.


About the edge, most uses of edge rather than one specific use of edge give you extra dice that can exceed the force cap?

[Fortune]

First you said it wasn't fair to spend only one way, so I gave a different example. Then you said you meant the other only one way so I gave a third example. Now you are saying that edge is just unfair.

Not really. I have been against the use of Edge at all all along. I only made a comment about it being unfair to use it for only one spell and not the other when making comparisons. If we are comparing spells, then the base spell should be what is compared, at least in my opinion.

... and the spirit doesn't have counter spelling, then will SS: occasionally whiff, usually put a really big hurt on the spirit, and almost never one shot it.

Counterspelling won't make a different in the example I gave. A Force 8 Spirit with Counterspelling rolls 16 Dice to resist, which is rarely going to beat the Spellcaster's Pool of 24, and the Spellcaster needs only one net hit.

Trying to pursade anyone that SS w/AOE is less effective than MS at killing materialized spirits is insane, but I think many people would agree that the anti mage effects and general utility of MS make it worth strong consideration over SS.

As I have said an a number of occasions, Mana Static definitely has its uses. I have only been addressing the title of 'best mother-fucking Horde-o'-Spirits killing spell', which in my opinion does not belong to Mana Static.

I have also addressed the idea of moving supposedly permanent spells. If that ability is removed (in my opinion the correct thing to do), then Mana Static becomes quite a bit less useful, as targets are free to move out of the Area of Effect if they are not immediately neutralized.

[Fortune]

Ok rather than call me insane would you like to point how i'm wrong? I spell out all my mechanics and assumptions explicitly. Just because something is specialized doesn't mean that it IS the best even if it SHOULD be the best.

I didn't call you insane. I spelled out all my mechanics three times, but you aren't seeing what I'm saying.

Given the same Spellcasting and Drain Resistance Pools, Slaughter Spirit is more effective than Mana Static at slaughtering Spirits.

[WeaverMount]

Not really. I have been against the use of Edge at all all along. I only made a comment about it being unfair to use it for only one spell and not the other when making comparisons. If we are comparing spells, then the base spell should be what is compared, at least in my opinion.

I'm not sure where the miss communication is coming from, but I never gave edge to one spell but not the other. When you said rather throw out edge all together, I disagreed with that assumption and went on to show why I think that MS is still better.

Counterspelling won't make a different in the example I gave. A Force 8 Spirit with Counterspelling rolls 16 Dice to resist, which is rarely going to beat the Spellcaster's Pool of 24, and the Spellcaster needs only one net hit.

If we are using edge MS wins. If you are not using edge how you are getting 24. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I have also addressed the idea of moving supposedly permanent spells. If that ability is removed (in my opinion the correct thing to do), then Mana Static becomes quite a bit less useful, as targets are free to move out of the Area of Effect if they are not immediately neutralized.

I always though that any spell you were sustaining counted as a sustained spell. I dropped this point when people started contesting it because the argument wouldn't get anywhere, I don't have a strong stance on, and I don't need it to make my case.

[Cthulhudreams]

As I have said an a number of occasions, Mana Static definitely has its uses. I have only been addressing the title of 'best mother-fucking Horde-o'-Spirits killing spell', which in my opinion does not belong to Mana Static.

I have also addressed the idea of moving supposedly permanent spells. If that ability is removed (in my opinion the correct thing to do), then Mana Static becomes quite a bit less useful, as targets are free to move out of the Area of Effect if they are not immediately neutralized.

Yup, it's entirely valid to take both or either, they have different roles. I'd submit that MS is great not because it is the best spell at anything it can do, but its because it can do so much (take out spirits on your plane, the other plane and shut down mages). The taking out spirits on the other plane is unique capability, and its probably the leading spell at shutting down mages, and is merely good at taking out spirits on your plane.

[WeaverMount]

>... is merely good at taking out spirits on your plane.
No one has even tried to contested my claim that MS is better for taking out F4 spirits. For the F8 example the counter points have been a miss understanding about my use of edge, and then ignoring my example with out it and my reasoning for including it.

[Fortune]

If you are not using edge how you are getting 24.

Do you read any of my posts? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Dismissing Edge from the equation, for the reasons I listed earlier.

Since the Force of Spirit being bandied about earlier in the thread was 8 (reasonable for a higher-end Spirit), that is the Force I used in my example. Statistically you need a Spellcasting Pool of 24 to consistently get 8 'hits' on any given spell. I never stated where this mythical Dice Pool is coming from, merely that it is the minimum needed to get 8 'hits' with any regularity.

So for a Force 8 Mana Static, which is the minimum Force needed to one-shot a Force 8 Spirit, you would need the above-mentioned Dice Pool of 24. You would also need that same size Drain Resistance Pool to totally shrug off the 8 DV from the Mana Static spell.

Now, given those same Dice Pools when casting Slaughter Spirit, you can cast it at Force 11 and expect 8 hits on the Spellcasting test. A Force 8 Spirit with Magical Guard (or Counterspelling) has a Resistance Pool of 16, and can therefore expect to regularly generate 5 1/3 'hits' to resist. Since one net 'hit' on the Force 11 Slaughter Spirit will do 12 boxes of damage (which is exactly what a Force 8 Spirit has), the spellcaster can typically take the Spirit(s) down in one-shot with a couple of successes to spare. On top of that, Drain for the Force 11 Slaughter Spirit is a mere 6 DV, which would only require a Drain Resistance Pool of 18 to reliably shake off the Drain, as opposed to the 24 Dice Pool necessary to consistently achieve the same result with Mana Static.

[Fortune]

No one has even tried to contested my claim that MS is better for taking out F4 spirits.

Force 4 Spirits ...

For Mana Static to take out Force 4 Spirits in one shot, it needs to be cast at a Force of 4, with 4 'hits' on the spellcasting test. This requires a minimum Spellcasting Pool of 12 to achieve with any regularity. The resulting Drain Value is 6, which to eliminate entirely needs a Drain Resistance Pool of 18.

Slaughter Spirit, on the other hand, cast at a Force of 9 with the same Spellcasting Pool would also usually generate 4 'hits'. Force 4 Spirits have a Resistance Pool of 4, or 8 for those with Magical Guard, and will typically generate 1 1/3 'hits', or 2 2/3 'hits' respectively. Since only one net 'hit' is required to do 10 boxes of damage (which is the total number of boxes that a Force 4 Spirit possesses), the Slaughter Spirit will almost always be successful, statistically speaking, even against those Spirits with Magical Guard. Now we get to the Drain Value, which for the Force 9 Slaughter Spirit is 5, needing only a Drain Resistance Pool of 15 to consistently bring down to nothing, which is 3 Dice less than that needed for a Mana Static with the same 'Spirit Killing' effect.

[Mordinvan]

edge only bypasses net hits with edge dice. and only when used before the dice are rolled. which means now you need a huge edge attribute as well as high magic. it's really not likely to let you lower the required force of the mana static spell by more than 1-2.

I thought use of edge always invoked rule of 6 for ALL dice if used before the roll was made, and not just the edge dice?
Is it in the errata somewhere?

(ignore me, I saw this same question above)

[WeaverMount]

Fortune, I'm fully aware it was Cthulhudreams who call me insane. You've always keep it to the facts even if I'm little surprised by the scale of our miss communication here.

As for your F4 example allow me to respond. Let's roll with your assumption that for splatting 4F spirits we should be talking about F4 MS and F11 SS. Those drain codes are 6S vs 5P. That isn't exactly a win for you. The reason is that you can't stop the discussion with expected values. 15 DP is not a magic safety net, you will take P when you try this not in infrequently. Also the spirits can get lucky on there resistance roll. Something that doesn't happen with MS.

Pros for MS: More reliable, less than half strength signature, doesn't require Magic 6 (meaning you can have cyber and/or avoid the hard cap)
"Pros" for SS: lower but more dangerous drain code.

Conclusion 3 nominal benefits vs. 1 questionable benifit.

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About the 24 thanks for the clarification, you were confusing confusing my examples. Without edge a 400bp magician basically can't 1-shot an F8 without edge using either spell. With edge (which I still maintain is a reasonable consideration when facing an F8 spirit/s) MS wins for the reasons I gave. Then at your urging I spelled out the no edge options where I still feel MS wins. You have yet to address that post.