[X] My Assistant

[Fortune]

As for your F4 example allow me to respond. Let's roll with your assumption that for splatting 4F spirits we should be talking about F4 MS and F11 SS.

Note that for Force 4 Spirits I only needed to use a Force 9 Slaughter Spirit, not Force 11.

Pros for MS: More reliable ...

I'm not sure where you get this. With Mana Static you must get 4 hits for this to be effectively called a 'spirit killer'. If you don't get those hits, the Spirits do not die, and can subsequently move. Admittedly there is no resistance test, but you still could get a bad roll just as easily as you give the Spirit credit for rolling well, and not get the required amount of hits.

... less than half strength signature ...

This is true, which is one reason I originally suggested multi-casting lower Force spells.

... doesn't require Magic 6 (meaning you can have cyber and/or avoid the hard cap)

Note the Force of the spell is 9, which does not require a Magic of 6, merely 5.

"Pros" for SS: lower but more dangerous drain code.

The Physical Drain is another reason for casting multiple lower Force spells. Overall though, the DV is lower for Slaughter Spirit, and therefore easier to heal if Drain is taken.

Conclusion 3 nominal benefits vs. 1 questionable benefit.

Correction: 1 nominal benefit vs 1 very useful benefit (I don't think it's fair to call a lower DV a 'questionable' benefit)

About the 24 thanks for the clarification, you were confusing confusing my examples. Without edge a BP magician basically can't 1-shot an F without edge using either spell. With edge (which I still maintain is a reasonable consideration when facing an F spirit/s) MS wins for the reasons I gave. Then at your urging I spelled out the no edge options where I still feel MS wins. You have yet to address that post.

You are partly right. Offhand, I don't see any way for a 400 BP Magician to reliably one-shot a Force 8 Spirit with Mana Static without Edge. Even with Edge you would be hard pressed to get the required Dice Pool of 24 for consistent success.

But you are wrong about Slaughter Spirit. Without Edge, a 400 BP Magician could indeed reliably one-shot a Force 8 Spirit with Slaughter Spirit. A Dice Pool of higher than 16 is all that is needed, which is quite attainable. Magic 5 + Spellcasting 6 + Combat Spell Specialization 2 + Lion Mentor Spirit 2 + Power Focus 2 = 17 Dice Pool. A Force 8 Spirit with Magical Guard has 16 Dice for resistance, so statistically would lose out to the spellcaster. I could even up the Magic to 6 and/or use a Force 3 Combat Spell Focus instead of the Power Focus to pump the Pool even higher, making it even more of a sure thing.

[FrankTrollman]

Mana Static is not more reliable. To kill the Force 4 Spirit you have to get all four hits. That's exactly like the target getting 3 spell defense hits every time against a Slaughter Spirit (since Slaughter Spirits only needs 1 net hit). But in reality, spirits frequently get less than 3 hits on their spell defense. Indeed, the average is less than 3 hits even for Force 4 spirits who have Magical Guard.

Mana Static doesn't allow a spell resistance roll, but you need to get more hits to make it work than your target is liable to get on a spell resistance test regardless. If you only roll 3 hits on your Slaughter Spirit spell, a Force 4 Spirit is still very likely to be dead. While if you get 3 hits on a Mana Static the spirit will just move into another area where it can be full size again.

-Frank

[Dr Funfrock]

As I have said an a number of occasions, Mana Static definitely has its uses. I have only been addressing the title of 'best mother-fucking Horde-o'-Spirits killing spell', which in my opinion does not belong to Mana Static.

See, I think this is where we diverged in the first place. My intention in starting this thread was not to ask what the best tool was for killing hordes of spirits, but rather to address the fact that in addition to it's many uses as an excellent defensive and utility spell, Mana Static also served as an effective (not best, just very effective) horde spirit killer. That other spells may be better for this specific purpose does not change the fact that Mana Static has all that and more, and as a result of it's immense utility appears to be a somewhat overpowered spell. In particular I was addressing the (in my opinion) somewhat flawed implementation of the Permanancy rules, which allow Mana Static to be used as a burst effect spirit hose without shutting down the casters own magical capabilities, because they just have to stop sustaining the spell, and they get to use their full magic again (after their fellow runners have finished hosing the enemy mages).

[Fortune]

My intention in starting this thread was not to ask what the best tool was for killing hordes of spirits, but rather to address the fact that in addition to it's many uses as an excellent defensive and utility spell, Mana Static also served as an effective (not best, just very effective) horde spirit killer.

I understand that. Conversation flowed on. Shrug. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't know what more I can say on the topic of Mana Static being overpowered. I think if it were made to be stationary while being sustained that would help alleviate some of the problem. I also think that if the Background Count rose over the course of sustaining the spell instead of appearing all at once it would be better.

[FrankTrollman]

If it took an entire combat round just to get a Background Count of 1, that spell would be ass and no one with any sense would ever cast it.

Mana Static is really good because it shuts down magic. If it took a long time for it to generate decent penalties, magic would not get shut down and the spell would be just this side of completely useless. Mana Static doesn't do some other thing in some other situation. It just shuts down magic. If you won't let it do that, you should just erase it from the book.

-Frank

[Earlydawn]

I don't think anybody is upset with it nullifying magic as per the description. It's simply a little hard to swallow the spell blinking supposedly mighty multi-planar entities out of existance within the span of a combat turn - three seconds.

[FrankTrollman]

I don't think anybody is upset with it nullifying magic as per the description. It's simply a little hard to swallow the spell blinking supposedly mighty multi-planar entities out of existance within the span of a combat turn - three seconds.

Dude, it's Shadowrun. Combats last 3 seconds. Anything you can't do in 3 seconds isn't worth doing. If you attack a spirit with a manabolt or a high powered rifle it takes 3 seconds. If you decide to levitate someone's motorcycle it takes 3 seconds. If you decide to shape the pavement into a severe tire damage nightmare that takes 3 seconds.

It's Shadowrun. You do things. In 3 seconds.

-Frank

[RunnerPaul]

It's Shadowrun. You do things. In 3 seconds.

For money.

[Fortune]

I'm quite alright with making it semi-useless if cast 'in combat'. It is still a useful spell, especially if the caster has time to plan ahead.

[Cthulhudreams]

The point where it becomes more effective to take detect life/shape metal/powerball though is fundamentally the same as removing it from the book.

[Fortune]

So your point is that there really should be only the 12 most useful spells in the book? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Some spells are more effective than others. They doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose. Useful is subjective anyway. I mean, Mana Static is never one of my top 12 choices.

[FrankTrollman]

Some spells are more effective than others. They doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose. Useful is subjective anyway. I mean, Mana Static is never one of my top 12 choices.

Why would you advocate nerfing something that is not even good enough for your own magicians to learn?

-Frank

[Fortune]

Because game balance goes beyond the edge of my personal character sheet.

[FrankTrollman]

Because game balance goes beyond the edge of my personal character sheet.

Yes it does. But do you see the inherent problem with claiming that a spell is overpowered if you personally eschew it, not for theme or taste but merely because you don't think that it is good enough?

-Frank

[WeaverMount]

I gave a little to much ground, and pushed my argument a little to far. If we ban edge, and use your ruling on moving permanents, and are dealing with a mage a couple dice short of the complete max DP specialized in arguably the worst spell category, you got me on the F8. On the F4s I still don't think you get to claim a win drain code. I fully admit my internal logic on the reliablity was a little fuzzy. It was basiclly that both spells should get enough hits to win and that the spirits shouldn't make the resistance roll. I was thinking 1 chance for bad luck is better than 2 chances for bad luck. I'm not dating a statistician any more so I can't come back with the exact odds, but I wouldn't be surprised either way. Until I get those numbers, I'll listen to people who have played way more than me.

edit: deleted totally random quote

[Apathy]

Regardless of whether it would be useful for offensive and mobile runners, I think that its utility to security mages guarding static positions would be obvious.

[Dr Funfrock]

Anything you can't do in 3 seconds isn't worth doing.

That logic doesn't even begin to make sense.

You don't call up a contact in 3 seconds.
You don't plant a cutting charge in 3 seconds.
You don't assemble a sniper rifle in 3 seconds.
You don't restart a faulty getaway vehicle in 3 seconds.
You don't patch up someone's wounds with first aid in 3 seconds.

All of those are dramatic actions that could take place during the middle of a run.
Your reasoning only works if an adventure starts with "OK, you started the run, everyone roll initiative. We stay in combat turns until the run is over. Now here comes the first wave of guards..."

There will be downtime. There will be breaks between fights or other action scenes for people to heal or re-equip, or do all the other interesting stuff that basically forms the actual substance of a shadow run. There will be, essentially, times when people are not shooting at you. Something doesn't have to be usable in the space of one turn for it to have an effect on combat, or on your tactical situation in general.
Mana-Static, as a spell that allows you to prepare a defence in one area, could be extremely effective. It still only takes seconds, up to about half a minute, to set up. That's not a huge amount of time. Sure, a lot of bullets could fly in those 30 seconds, but bullets aren't always flying.

[Zak]

Anything you can't do in 3 seconds isn't worth doing

That logic doesn't even begin to make sense.

In combat this logic keeps you alive. Outside of it, well you named it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

But do you see the inherent problem with claiming that a spell is overpowered if you personally eschew it, not for theme or taste but merely because you don't think that it is good enough?

I never said it was not 'good enough'. I specifically stated that 'usefulness is subjective', and that Mana Static didn't make my top 12 list. I don't even really think it is all that overpowered except for the BC happening all at once, which we have discussed already.

[Dr Funfrock]

In combat this logic keeps you alive. Outside of it, well you named it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's fair enough, and I would agree entirely with that argument. What I disagree with is the idea that combat is the only thing that matters on a run, or that anything that happens outside of combat cannot be dramatic.

If your only tactical options in a fight are ones that take three seconds or less, that means you didn't prepare for the fight properly, either because you didn't get a chance, or because you didn't take the chance when it was available. The latter situation is, I would argue, what spells like Mana-Static should be for.

[FrankTrollman]

That's fair enough, and I would agree entirely with that argument. What I disagree with is the idea that combat is the only thing that matters on a run, or that anything that happens outside of combat cannot be dramatic.

If your only tactical options in a fight are ones that take three seconds or less, that means you didn't prepare for the fight properly, either because you didn't get a chance, or because you didn't take the chance when it was available. The latter situation is, I would argue, what spells like Mana-Static should be for.

Mana Static almost never works for that though. Spirits can move in 3 dimensions and can physically see the extent of Mana Static. It's almost impossible to get a Mana Static trap to do much of anything in Shadowrun. If the enemy doesn't want to go into your Mana Static, they won't.

If you can't drop it in a hurry, the spell becomes almost completely worthless. It goes into Shattershield territory - still has uses, but so very obscure that almost no one is ever going to learn the spell. You may as well drop it from the book entirely, since you will probably not see it in play.

If you want to deny areas, then Mana Barriers drop instantaneously and cost less drain. If you want to kill spirits, then Stunblasts drop instantaneously and cost less drain. Frankly, if you want to stop people from casting spells you can usually do much the same by just dropping flak into the air - blocked LOS means no spellcasting.

Mana Static has ridiculous drain and is a useful spell because it's versatile. If you make it show up in non-combat time, it's not versatile anymore. Now it just sucks.

-Frank

[Dr Funfrock]

If the enemy doesn't want to go into your Mana Static, they won't.

Job done.

It doesn't have to "trap" anything to be effective. If the enemy's only possible solution to your defence is "don't go there for a few hours", your defence has worked. If putting up a mana-static keeps spirits from raiding the area where the hacker is running the data-steal, job's a good 'un. Sure, stunball works, but stunball isn't an automatic first strike on anything entering the area, before they even materialise.

Stunball is for when they decide that they're high enough force to run the static anyway. Static + stunball = pop.

[Ryu]

Mana Static can protect your allies when you are away. Anything that is strong enough to enter is then weak enough to be defeated.

For my practical gaming use, manabolt is the main spirit killer. Large numbers of weak spirits are usually handled by the mundanes before I even get to act. Force 4 spirits are not immune to grenades at all.

[Cthulhudreams]

Job done.

It doesn't have to "trap" anything to be effective. If the enemy's only possible solution to your defence is "don't go there for a few hours", your defence has worked. If putting up a mana-static keeps spirits from raiding the area where the hacker is running the data-steal, job's a good 'un. Sure, stunball works, but stunball isn't an automatic first strike on anything entering the area, before they even materialise.

Stunball is for when they decide that they're high enough force to run the static anyway. Static + stunball = pop.

Didn't you read the bit where frank pointed out the flaws in that approach. Ie that I can use manabarrier instead and it has less drain and comes up faster. It's even more effective, as while it defends those inside, friends of the creator are completely unaffected by it, so you can still lay down a barrage on those outside.

[WeaverMount]

Force 4 spirits are not immune to grenades at all.

F6 is huge break point for spirits. The extra optional power is nice, but 12 hardened armor is from ItNW mean immunity to schmucks with HE grenades.