Template System Options

[Sweaty Hippo]

Cain was thinking of a template system for Shadowrun. I posted some ideas in the Runner's Companion thread, suggesting how it could be done. However, it was getting off-topic fast, so I moved said ideas here.

I want to see a functional character creation system in SR4, and by that I mean a template system.

This URL explains that templates are pre-bought packages of character options.

The 16 pre-generated characters in the SR4 book can be considered templates, though.

A template system can be good for Shadowrun, but some gamers want to build characters from the ground up. And that is viable, too.

Can I take multiple stats templates?

Sure, as long as they don't exceed caps. Note that an effective +5 increase to an attribute would make it cost 75 BP instead of 50 BP.

Example: Marksman (Skills) 50 BP
Pistols 3, Longarms 6/Sporting Rifles Specialization 8, Perception 3

And another: Spy (Skills) 80 BP
Stealth skill group 4, Cracking skill group 1, Athletics skill group 1, Social Skill group 2

One more: Bruiser (Attributes, Physical and Mental) 170 BP
Strength and Body +4, +1 Logic, +2 to all other attributes

Egghead (Attributes, Physical and Mental) 180 BP
Logic +4, Intuition and Willpower +3, Body and Strength +1, all others +2

Martial Artist (Skills) 68 BP
Athletics skill group 3, Dodge 4, Unarmed Combat 5 (Martial Arts specialization 7)

Combat Mage (Special Features) 24 BP
Armor, Combat Sense, Death Touch, Heal, Manabolt, Manaball, Mana Field, Wired Reflexes

More to come soon.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'd recommend an awesome place to go would be gear. Shadowrun is a future tech orginated game for all the non-awakened archtypes, so I'd actually consider adding gear to packages, or making gear packages.

Also, wired reflexes on a mage is so stupid my head explodes with agony just thinking about it. Can I suggest instead.


Combat Mage (Special Features) 55 BP
Mana Static, Combat Sense, Manaball, Heal, Turn to Goo, Trid Phantasm, Control Thoughts, Synaptic boosters R1, trauma dampener, power focus.

You could also logically add

Magician, +4 magic, Mentor Spirit: Dragon/Asskicking/Something for 60 BP.

[Sweaty Hippo]

I'd recommend an awesome place to go would be gear. Shadowrun is a future tech orginated game for all the non-awakened archtypes, so I'd actually consider adding gear to packages, or making gear packages.

Also, wired reflexes on a mage is so stupid my head explodes with agony just thinking about it. Can I suggest instead.


Combat Mage (Special Features) 55 BP
Mana Static, Combat Sense, Manaball, Heal, Turn to Goo, Trid Phantasm, Control Thoughts, Synaptic boosters, trauma dampener, power focus.

Your concern is noted. However, I can only have so many ideas to post. I prefer to save the gear templates for later.

[Cthulhudreams]

If the point of templates is to make things faster, you need to disallow multiple stats templates because of the needing to know the changing costs when stats rise to racial maximums. Which is actually going to pose a problem, because if I take your egghead template and ork, I need to know that the egghead template cost increases after I take the ork template.

You need an elegant way to deal with that.

[BishopMcQ]

We could divide each race into 3 groups: Bricks, Magic, and Socialites. This is easy now when we only have a handful of Meta-types, but if you add in a slew of variants then it's going to get ugly fast.

Skill Groups could easily be broken into models (Skill group 4, Skill 5, Skill 5, 3 Skills at 3) and then fleshed out with archetypal names or qualities.

Gear templates already exist in some fashion with the Cyberware Packages. By expanding on that, you can quickly expend all points.

[Muspellsheimr]

What you have laid out is a "Package" system, not a Template system. I do not approve of templating because of the inherit un-customization it allows, and so will not provide any assistance beyond the basic layout I have presented below.

Although I may be off slightly on my view of how a template system works, I would suggest the following.

30 different Race/Attribute (Mental & Physical) combinations
30 different Quality/Skill combinations
30 different Resource (equipment, spells, contacts, special attributes, etc.) combinations

You select one Race/Attribute template - you are now that race, with those attributes. These cannot be altered.
You select one Quality/Skill template, from a list determined by your Race/Attribute choice.
You select one Resource template, from a list determined by your Quality/Skill template.

You now have a completed character. There is no need to list the Build Point value of each option, as the person using the template system will not have Build Points to spend.

Each Race/Attribute template should have 3 to 10 options from the Quality/Skill combination's.
Each Quality/Skill template should have 3 to 10 options from the Resource template.
Each full set (one Race/Attribute, one Quality/Skill, one Resource) of templates should cost 400 Build Points to create using the Point-Buy method in the Core rules set.

[Sweaty Hippo]

What you have laid out is a "Package" system, not a Template system. I do not approve of templating because of the inherit un-customization it allows, and so will not provide any assistance beyond the basic layout I have presented below.

Although I may be off slightly on my view of how a template system works, I would suggest the following.

30 different Race/Attribute (Mental & Physical) combinations
30 different Quality/Skill combinations
30 different Resource (equipment, spells, contacts, special attributes, etc.) combinations

You select one Race/Attribute template - you are now that race, with those attributes. These cannot be altered.
You select one Quality/Skill template, from a list determined by your Race/Attribute choice.
You select one Resource template, from a list determined by your Quality/Skill template.

You now have a completed character. There is no need to list the Build Point value of each option, as the person using the template system will not have Build Points to spend.

Each Race/Attribute template should have 3 to 10 options from the Quality/Skill combination's.
Each Quality/Skill template should have 3 to 10 options from the Resource template.
Each full set (one Race/Attribute, one Quality/Skill, one Resource) of templates should cost 400 Build Points to create using the Point-Buy method in the Core rules set.

That's a good idea.

As for attribute templates suggested by Cthulhudreams, that's a very good idea. For example, adding +3 Charisma to a Troll would 45 BP, not 30 BP. I am still a Shadowrun novice, so I may not be up to snuff.

[Sweaty Hippo]

Now for some full templates, as suggested by others:

Combat Mage
Race: human (0)
Attributes (240): Bod 3, Agi 3, Rea 3, Str 2, Cha 3, Int 5, Log 4, Wil 5, Mag 5, Ess 6, Edge 2
Initiative: 8
IP: 1
P Damage Track: 10
S Damage Track: 11
Active Skills (72): Assensing 4, Astral Combat 4, Conjuring Group 3, Pistols 3, Perception 3, Sorcery Group 4
Knowledge Skills: Hermetic Magic 4, Shamanic Magic 4, Street Gangs 4, Underworld Politics 4, History 4, Magical Folklore 4, Seattle Geography 3
Qualities (20): Focused Concentration 2, Magician, Sensitive System
Gear (10): Low Lifestyle (1 year), Sedan, Hammerli 620s w/ 10 spare clips of normal ammo, Leather Jacket, Docwagon Contract (2 years, basic), Fairlight Caliban Commlink w/ Iris Orb Stock Operating System, Sim Module, Glasses w/ Flare Compensation, Thermographic Vision, Low-light Vision, Vision Enhancement 3, and Vision Magnification, and Smartlink, 900 nuyen spent on increasing starting nuyen (3d6+9 x50), and 1000 spare nuyen to spend on gear
Contacts (10): Talismonger (Connection 2/Loyalty 3), Fixer (Connection 3/Loyalty 2)
Spells (24): Acid Spray, Armor, Combat Sense, Death Touch, Heal, Manabolt, Manaball, Wired Reflexes

Buff Troll
Race: Troll (40 BP)
Attributes (180 BP): Bod: 7, Agi: 3, Rea: 5, Str: 7, Cha: 3, Int: 3, Log: 3, Wil: 3
Edge: 3 (20 BP)
Initiative: 8
Initiative Passes: 3
Physical Damage Track: 12
Stun Damage Track: 10
Active Skills (96 BP): Athletics skill group 2, Biotech skill group 2, Close Combat skill group 4, Firearms skill group 3, Gunnery 2, Infiltration skill group 1, Intimidation 3, Perception 3, Pilot Aircraft 2, Pilot Ground Craft 2
Knowledge Skills (18 free BP): Seattle Street Gangs 4, Military 4, Security Procedures 4, Security Design 3, Street Drugs 3
Language Skills: English (N)
Qualities (35 BP): Guts, High Pain Tolerance 2, Quick Healer, Toughness
Cyberware: Eyeware: Vision Enhancement (Rating 3, 4500); Earware: Balance Augmenter (5000), Sound Link (250); Wired Reflexes 2
Gear: Melee Weapons: Katana (7P), Stun Baton (6S(e)); Firearms: Remington Roomsweeper w/ flechetes w/ 20 magazines with flechette ammo, FN HAR Assault Rifle (6P) w/ 20 spare clips; ID/Credsticks: Fake SIN; Vision Enhancement: Binoculars; Survival Gear: Climbing Gear; Grapple Gun: Grapple Gun; Biotech: Biomoniter, 10 Medkits (Rating 5)
Notes: +1 Reach, +1 Natural Armor, Natural Thermographic Vision

Sneaky Adept
Race: Human (0 BP)
Attributes (240 BP): Bod: 4, Agi: 5, Rea: 4 (+2 die), Str: 4, Cha: 2, Int: 3, Log: 3, Wil: 4, Mag: 6
Edge (20 BP): 4
Initiative: 9
Initiative Passes: 3
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10
Active Skills (88 BP): Athletics skill group 4, Close Combat skill group 4, Firearms skill group 4, Perception 5, Stealth skill group 5
Knowledge Skills (18 free BP): Renraku Enterprises 6, L.A. Street Gangs 4, Business 4, History 4
Language Skills (6 BP): Japanese: N, English: 4, Spanish: 2
Qualities (15 BP): Adept, Ambidexterity, Mentor Spirit (Cat[+2 Infiltration tests])
Adept Powers: Attribute Boost (all physical scores) 4, Great Leap 2, Improved Physical Attribute (Agility) 1, Improved Reflexes 2, Combat Sense 1
Gear: Two Fore-arm snap-blades (4P, reach 1), Renraku Sensei Commlink with Renraku Ichi Stock Operating System, Two Yamaha Sakura Fubukis (4P) w/ 10 spare ammo drums, Chameleon Suit (6/4)



How's this one look so far?

[BishopMcQ]

The point spend for the Adept powers is off on the sneaky human--as far as I can tell without referencing an actual book.
(4 + .5 + .5 + 2 +.5) = 7.5

I think the point though was to build 6 Human templates (Sneaky, Social, Combat, Technical, Magic, Resonance)
Then 6 Skill groupings and 6 Gear Lists.

The exercise would require breaking out BPs into categories--If you pick a BP heavy load in A, then you must pick a moderate B and a Weak C.

Basically map it out so that the priority choices can mix and match as follows:

Race 1 2 3 3 2 1
Skills 2 1 1 2 3 3
Gear 3 3 2 1 1 2

By flowcharting the options--You can create some versatility, while restricting choice. This way, you can script the options at each next tier to meet specific point buys based on previous expenditures within the build.

As a Race I can choose Human Tech(140), Human Face(125), or Human Adept (180).
If I choose Human Adept, my skill choices are Stealth Adept (195), Melee Adept (180), or Gunslinger Adept (170).
If I pick Gunslinger Adept, my gear choices are Pistols for Days, The Proper Tool for the job, or Survivalist (50)

If instead I went with Human Adept, Stealth Adept, because 375 pts had already been spent, there'd only be 25 points left for any of the gear packages.

Obviously, some of the gear packages for a gunslinger may also work for a Weapon Specialist, and so you can duplicate lists as long as the point spread worked in order to save time on development.

[Ryu]

The templates should not spend all points, but rather cover the minimum requirements for certain tasks.

Examples look close to the initial post:
Basic Combat Training 42 BP
Firearms 2, Athletics 1, Perception 2, Disguise 1

Athlete (before racial mods) 62 BP
Body 4, Willforce 3, Athletics 3


This would lead to some overlapping, which would require an adjustment in cost or rating.

[Sweaty Hippo]

The point spend for the Adept powers is off on the sneaky human--as far as I can tell without referencing an actual book.
(4 + .5 + .5 + 2 +.5) = 7.5

Attribute Boost costs .25 per attribute that you can boost.

[Sweaty Hippo]

The point spend for the Adept powers is off on the sneaky human--as far as I can tell without referencing an actual book.
(4 + .5 + .5 + 2 +.5) = 7.5

I think the point though was to build 6 Human templates (Sneaky, Social, Combat, Technical, Magic, Resonance)
Then 6 Skill groupings and 6 Gear Lists.

The exercise would require breaking out BPs into categories--If you pick a BP heavy load in A, then you must pick a moderate B and a Weak C.

Basically map it out so that the priority choices can mix and match as follows:

Race 1 2 3 3 2 1
Skills 2 1 1 2 3 3
Gear 3 3 2 1 1 2

By flowcharting the options--You can create some versatility, while restricting choice. This way, you can script the options at each next tier to meet specific point buys based on previous expenditures within the build.

As a Race I can choose Human Tech(140), Human Face(125), or Human Adept (180).
If I choose Human Adept, my skill choices are Stealth Adept (195), Melee Adept (180), or Gunslinger Adept (170).
If I pick Gunslinger Adept, my gear choices are Pistols for Days, The Proper Tool for the job, or Survivalist (50)

If instead I went with Human Adept, Stealth Adept, because 375 pts had already been spent, there'd only be 25 points left for any of the gear packages.

Obviously, some of the gear packages for a gunslinger may also work for a Weapon Specialist, and so you can duplicate lists as long as the point spread worked in order to save time on development.

I'll consider it. I don't think that I'll be able to complete it in quite some time.

The templates should not spend all points, but rather cover the minimum requirements for certain tasks.

Examples look close to the initial post:
Basic Combat Training 42 BP
Firearms 2, Athletics 1, Perception 2, Disguise 1

Athlete (before racial mods) 62 BP
Body 4, Willforce 3, Athletics 3


This would lead to some overlapping, which would require an adjustment in cost or rating.

I'll consider that.

I think it's odd that Cain hasn't posted in this thread. I thought that he cared about a template system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Apathy]

Edit: Deleted previous post

How many parameters should the templates be built along? SR3 had 5 categories (Race, Magic, Skills, Attributes, and Resources/Gear). It looks like in the example above you do something similar but combine Race, Magic/Resonance, and Attributes into a single category, leaving Skills and Resources separate. This seems to create scenarios where many of the possible combinations just wouldn't make sense (combine Troll Technomancer with the Conjurer skill set, and then stat him with cyber and gear for a gun bunny). On the other hand, if it were like a decision tree (choosing Troll Techno only allows you a sensible selection of skills and gear) it could work, but would result in much more work building all the different appropriate combinations.

[Ryu]

From his link:Repeated for Convenience

"A Template mechanic, on the other hand, is primarily a short-cut to make character creation faster. A pure template is just a pre-bought package of attributes, skills, and other capabilities in an otherwise skill-based system. Since it is just a time-saver, it may be an optional variant to a more complex point-buy system. After character creation, the template used is irrelevant -- there is no need to write down what template was used on the character sheet, for example."

I´d choose Attributes/Skillset/gear. In contradiction to my previous post I would not mix them.

Attribute packages should spend about 170 BP (to leave room for individuality), with broad categories like "athletic", "smart", "tough". Race is ignored, relevant mods get added. Special attributes get straight-out ignored BY THE PACKAGES, not much time to save here.

Each Skillset should contain the minimum required skills for a certain operational speciality. The player will have to take over once his choosen skillsets overlap. This is merely a tool to have all needed skills on the list, fast. I´d also give suggested minimum effective attribute values, but without buying any attributes.

Gear lists should not contain specific items unless there is only one choice, but give a ballpark figure for price. Say Combat Gear: pistol/rifle/regular ammo 2*100/combat armor/armored clothing/helmet.

[Muspellsheimr]

Bishop explained essentially what I had suggested quite well. Like I said before, what you are currently laying out is a Package system, not a Template system.

How many parameters should the templates be built along? SR3 had 5 categories (Race, Magic, Skills, Attributes, and Resources/Gear). It looks like in the example above you do something similar but combine Race, Magic/Resonance, and Attributes into a single category, leaving Skills and Resources separate.

My layout separates it into three categories - for sake of clarification I will cover exactly what they would include.

Race/Attributes: This covers what race you are, as well as your physical & mental attributes.
Skills/Qualities: This covers your qualities (positive & negative), and your active skills
Resources: This covers equipment, spells, complex forms, contacts, special attributes, and everything else that does not fit into the above two.

Alternatively, you could move special attributes (Edge, Magic, Resonance) to the Skills/Attributes section.

This seems to create scenarios where many of the possible combinations just wouldn't make sense (combine Troll Technomancer with the Conjurer skill set, and then stat him with cyber and gear for a gun bunny). On the other hand, if it were like a decision tree (choosing Troll Techno only allows you a sensible selection of skills and gear) it could work, but would result in much more work building all the different appropriate combinations.

Yes, it was intended to be a tree-like selection.

It will take a lot of work to put together a working template system, and ultimately only limit character choices, which is exactly why I do not intend to assist with the actual creation of such a system. I can see it's potential value to new players, & one-shot games, but the already provided archtypes could just as easily fit that role.

[Sweaty Hippo]

I can see it's potential value to new players, & one-shot games, but the already provided archtypes could just as easily fit that role.

Fix for the template system: archetypes. Make some stats for various archetypes, and voila! You've got a template system!

[BishopMcQ]

Attribute Boost costs .25 per attribute that you can boost.

Attribute Boost is .25/lvl per Attribute. At Rating 4, it would be (.25 * 4) or 1 power point per Attribute. As there are four physical Attributes, the total cost would be 4 points. If your intent was Rating 1 Attribute Boost for each of the Physical Attributes, then I misunderstood the short hand that you used.

[BishopMcQ]

Fix for the template system: archetypes. Make some stats for various archetypes, and voila! You've got a template system!

We already have 16 templates. Effectively, with archetypes, you are pre-generating characters for the players. I think the intent behind Cain's post was to have optimized models and yet still provide a nearly limitless number of options. As I have not seen a direct reply to my question asking him for a clear picture of what he meant, this is pure supposition.

[Sweaty Hippo]

If your intent was Rating 1 Attribute Boost for each of the Physical Attributes, then I misunderstood the short hand that you used.

That was my intent.

I think the intent behind Cain's post was to have optimized models and yet still provide a nearly limitless number of options.

In any of the archetypes in the SR4 book, you can customize some of the parts that you don't like to product a variant version. So in that sense, it could have nearly limitless options.

[Fortune]

I think it's odd that Cain hasn't posted in this thread. I thought that he cared about a template system.

As was pointed out numerous times, both here and in the other thread, this is not what Cain meant when he refered to a 'template system'. He is more interested in a modified Priority System as seem in previous Shadowrun editions.

[Sweaty Hippo]

As was pointed out numerous times, both here and in the other thread, this is not what Cain meant when he refered to a 'template system'. He is more interested in a modified Priority System as seem in previous Shadowrun editions.

Alright, thanks for enlightening a darkened soul.

[Fortune]

To be honest, I like your idea more that the idea of a Priority System, although I don't really think either are needed, nor do I see them as saving all that much time. The main benefit that I can see to your idea is to keep newbie players from forgetting about skills like Dodge and Perception.

[Sweaty Hippo]

To be honest, I like your idea more that the idea of a Priority System, although I don't really think either are needed, nor do I see them as saving all that much time. The main benefit that I can see to your idea is to keep newbie players from forgetting about skills like Dodge and Perception.

Okay, I didn't find making these any faster, not to mention that 16 pregens are a lot of options. As for newbies, 4th Edition seems to be quite a user-friendly system. I was really just thinking of a priority system to help lease some board users.

[Cthulhudreams]

I suspect you really need packages in the following categories to fit together. ignore technomancers because they suck so hard you'll struggle.

Race + Attributes <-- just because these are interlinked, so you have to do them all at once whether you like it or not

Awakened-ness -> Insightful Ork or Titantic troll

Core skills -> Professional, Amateur, Street punk,

Profession Packages -> Confidence trickster or Conjurer

Equipment -> Demolitions, Heavy weapons

Is that a complete set of characteristics? I think it may need an 'advanced skills' package as well.

If you pick a smart naming convention you can probably even call it the 'phrase' character creation system

[Apathy]

To be honest, I like your idea more that the idea of a Priority System, although I don't really think either are needed, nor do I see them as saving all that much time. The main benefit that I can see to your idea is to keep newbie players from forgetting about skills like Dodge and Perception.

I'm kind of on board with this, too. From what I remember of SR3, the Priority system never really saved me much time, because I still had to pick through Fields of Fire and the Street Sam Catalog to figure out what to buy. And I always thought basing spell points on resources was kind of wonky - meant that I couldn't have a knowledgeable-but-poor mage.

Anyway, my vote would be that making a more robust set of well built sample characters (like, not just generic street sam but 1.brick, 2.speed sam, 3.pistoleer, 4.generalist, 5.sam/hacker or sam/rigger hybrids, 6.etc), along with the build points (and nuyen/essence cost, ect) listed beside each entry, would be a good option. With the build points listed beside each entry it would be easy to figure out how to swap out pieces and configure to your taste. Much of this has already been done in the various Archetype- and NPC- threads.