How do non-awakend deal with spirits?, Is there something like magical bullets? Options

[Daier Mune]

It doesn't. Those are magical weapons. They're not effective because they're magical, but because of the specific sort of magic that they are. The magic involved in killing hands or a weapon focus specifically enhances the capacity of those objects insofar as they are weapons. It isn't a matter of being a weapon which is magical, but of being a magical weapon.

what?

[Jackstand]

What what?

[Jackstand]

What what?

[Jackstand]

Oops

[Daier Mune]

its just that "It isn't a matter of being a weapon which is magical, but of being a magical weapon." didn't make any sense.

ok. so i looked it up. BBB, pg 186, Astra Barriers:
"...a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up. In this case, make the same Opposed Test described above (Magic + Charisma vs. barrier's Force x2). If the barrier wins, however, the item or entity still breaks through but is automatically disrupted...Disrupted spirits are sent back to the spirit's metaplane, whereas disrupted characters are knocked unconscious."

so if you have a dual-natured bullet, which creates a barrier on both the physical and the astral plane, and it is forced through a manifesting spirit, and it wins vs. the spirit's force, the spirit would be disrupted.

now, perhaps this is a stretch of the rules, but it seems like a straightforward application to me. its not going to be as easy as slotting a go-ganger with a .50 bullet, nor will it be as effective as an adept or a mage going toe-to-toe with the spirit, but its a possibility.

[Jackstand]

its just that "It isn't a matter of being a weapon which is magical, but of being a magical weapon." didn't make any sense.

You could have a sword which is a power focus, and it is, then, still a weapon, and it is magical, but it's not a magical weapon.

[Daier Mune]

You could have a sword which is a power focus, and it is, then, still a weapon, and it is magical, but it's not a magical weapon.

i guess that depends on how hard you hit someone with it.

[Fortune]

Jackstand's point is that a Power Focus could be made in the form of a club, and may even do damage as a club if you were to hit someone with it. That still would not make it a Weapon Focus though.

[Muspellsheimr]

If you turn a weapon into a focus, but not a weapon focus, does it still do damage to creatures with Immunity to Normal Weapons?

No. It's magic, but it's not a magic weapon.

[Daier Mune]

right...i'm having problems understanding what that has to do with the discussion at hand, though. we're not talking about weapon foci, we're talking about means and goods available to mundanes for creating makeshift ways of disrupting spirits.

a magic bullet, in theory, does not kill by means of focusing ambient mana into a bolt of energy by means of an awakened character's will. it works by the basic principles by which magic operates (ie: if you force an astral barrier through a spirit, either the barrier breaks or the spirit does).

this of course is assuming that dual-natured inanimate objects function like an astral barrier (i honestly don't know if they do or not).

[Muspellsheimr]

It has everything to do with it. It is saying, quite specifically, that although a weapon may be magical, that does not necisarily mean it is a Magic Weapon. Having a Dual-Natured bullet does not allow it to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons. Similarly, having a non-Weapon Foci enchantment on it will make it magical, but not a Magic Weapon, and as such it still would be unable to bypass ItNW. How it interacts with a Mana Barrier is completely unrelated to how it will affect spirits.

[Daier Mune]

so even though the physical representation of the bullet isn't actualy doing any damage, but it is in fact the astral portion of the object, its still considered a 'normal weapon'?

*rolls eyes* well i guess it was a good attempt. back to the dual-natured lasers and FAB-sprayers i guess.

[Muspellsheimr]

A Dual-Natured creature punching a Materialized spirit uses Unarmed Combat, and it's attacks are subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons. A Dual-Natured creature 'punching' a spirit's Astral Form uses Astral Combat, and it's attacks are not subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons.

With a Firearm, you are using your associated firearm skill, and the bullet is striking as such, and so is subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons. The bullet is incapable of using Astral Combat to bypass the Immunity. If you are capable of Astral Combat, you could possibly use a Dual-Natured gun/bullet for a ranged astral attack, but such is not covered by RAW and would be a GM ruling.

[K2that'sit]

This is meant to be funny but I may sound like an ass. If i where to pick up a mage or a ghoul and smack a spirit with it I would do damage right? So if that is the case i then get creative and make a junk yard catapult and then fire the mage or what ever at the pesky spirit. Now we would not be using my Str we would be using the catapults Str. right? Then we go to the circus for a grand old time and we see a dwarf shot of a cannon. Now we start shooting the mage or the ghoul or what ever we have lying around that dual natured at the spirit so then we would be shooting a cannon at the spirit and it is no way a normal weapon right?

[AngelisStorm]

so even though the physical representation of the bullet isn't actualy doing any damage, but it is in fact the astral portion of the object, its still considered a 'normal weapon'?

*rolls eyes* well i guess it was a good attempt. back to the dual-natured lasers and FAB-sprayers i guess.

You say that like lasers and spray guns aren't super cool. *smirk*

But Crizh said on the last page that there is a rule in Street Magic that states possessed objects deal their full damage to spirits. While I can't find it at the moment (just a quick 3 minute look), I also recall finally finding such a rule, because I wanted to give one of my (mundane) players a demon possessed sword.

And it's not like we don't have a good list so far, of how mundanes deal with spirits:

High Damage, High AP
Buying spirit services
Spirit Pacts
Taking a free spirit as a high loyalty contact
Magical Compounds (or whatever their called)
(Possibly) Possessed bullets
Taking the Banishing skill, for attacks of will
Dual natured lasers
Heck, lasers (half armor, after all)
Sprayers
Alergies (heck, bugs are severely alergic to bug spray)

And I'm sure I missed some. Not a bad list, for not being magical.

Or hey, do the warding trick. Ward your van or truck, and just run into the dang spirit.

[Synner667]

Isn't the whole point of why you had to use a Melee attack/weapon [sword, hands, staff, etc]...
...Was because the "intent" of the attack "powers" the attack, using willpower.

And the reason you can't use a ranged attack on Spirits was that a gun had no "intent" or willpower to "power" the attack ??

Sure, you might be able to blow chunks off the physical manifestation of a Spirit, but since it's "powered" by Astral Space it'll just regenerate [though it might have to take conscious effort to rebuild/regenerate itself]...
...Wheras the attack by willpower would attack the essence of the Spirit, the very bindings that maintain it's manifestation.


To change the way combat against Spirits is done, by just giving them Immunity to Normal Weapons [treat them as Hardened Armour] is a bit rubbish, and looks like change for change sake and streamlining to fit into the updated rules

[FrankTrollman]

To change the way combat against Spirits is done, by just giving them Immunity to Normal Weapons [treat them as Hardened Armour] is a bit rubbish, and looks like change for change sake and streamlining to fit into the updated rules

What are you talking about? That's how Spiritual Immunity to Normal Weapons always worked. The mechanics of having a lot of armor have changed as editions changed, but that is literally always how spiritual resistance to guns worked, all the way back to 1989.

-Frank

[Shiloh]

... tell ur mage partner to keep his free action to protect using counterspelling...

Counterspelling doesn't require any maintenance. Just LoS and a free action to declare it's set up. After that it stays til the Mage drops it. Have another read.

[Jackstand]

This is meant to be funny but I may sound like an ass. If i where to pick up a mage or a ghoul and smack a spirit with it I would do damage right? So if that is the case i then get creative and make a junk yard catapult and then fire the mage or what ever at the pesky spirit. Now we would not be using my Str we would be using the catapults Str. right? Then we go to the circus for a grand old time and we see a dwarf shot of a cannon. Now we start shooting the mage or the ghoul or what ever we have lying around that dual natured at the spirit so then we would be shooting a cannon at the spirit and it is no way a normal weapon right?

It might work if you shot an adept with killing hands out of the cannon to do some sort of flying, killing headbutt. Otherwise, just being astrally active doesn't bypass the immunity to normal weapons of a manifest spirit.

[Herald of Verjig...]

It might work if you shot an adept with killing hands out of the cannon to do some sort of flying, killing headbutt.

And here we hav the best way for a mundane (troll) to kill a spirit, tie a dwarf adept with killing hands to a long chain and wield him as a high reach melee weapon.

Maybe also keep some throwing gnomes on hand (killing hands, and something to survive the fall afterward) for the hard to reach spirits.

[Jackstand]

The possible snag is that the character with the killing hands may need to be the one doing the attacking for it to count for piercing the immunity.

[crizh]

But Crizh said on the last page that there is a rule in Street Magic that states possessed objects deal their full damage to spirits. While I can't find it at the moment (just a quick 3 minute look), I also recall finally finding such a rule, because I wanted to give one of my (mundane) players a demon possessed sword.

Street Magic p87, top of the left hand column.

[crizh]

A Dual-Natured creature punching a Materialized spirit uses Unarmed Combat, and it's attacks are not subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons.

(edited for correctness.)

Dual-Natured is a Critter Power and therefore penetrates ItNW. Dual Natured creatures have always had the great advantages of getting to use their normal physical stats against Spirits and other Astral threats, the ability to ignore ItNW and not suffering penalties for Astrally Perceiving.

[Jackstand]

Are you talking about where it says,

As they are dual natured, they may also be used as weapons against astral forms.

?

That means that you could use one against a wholly astral enemy, and a non-manifest spirit does not have immunity to normal weapons, rather than that they bypass the immunity of a manifest one.

[crizh]

Are you talking about where it says,

?

That means that you could use one against a wholly astral enemy, and a non-manifest spirit does not have immunity to normal weapons, rather than that they bypass the immunity of a manifest one.

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous post.