How do non-awakend deal with spirits?, Is there something like magical bullets? Options

[Stahlseele]

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jun 6 2008, 04:36 AM) *
It's just to bad there aren't any dual natured metals out there. Wouldn't that then qualify for bypassing the immunity to normal weapons?

hmm . . what about orcichalcum? or however one spells that stuff <.< . .
granted, it is frigging expansive . . but would that work? O.o

[Jackstand]

Nah. I don't think that Orichalcum is dual natured. It's just very receptive to enchantment.

[Daier Mune]

what about a capsule bullet filled with a FAB strain?

[AngelisStorm]

So I didn't mention this earlier because it's not Canon, but in my campaign I have a partial solution to this problem.

The campaign I run is based around mundanes having to deal with Awakened Threats (hey, you can't always call a wizard in, and alot of the time the people who are willing to stand up to Demons aren't the ones who happen to be Awakened. Who you gonna call? Not the Awakened Ghost Busters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

So one solution I created to make their lives a little easier was to add more Alergies to the spirits they fight. If the Free Spirit is supposed to be a Fey, then it has Alergy: Cold Iron, for example. That makes their lives easier, once they figure out what they are up against.

Also there is a precedent for non awakened picking up certain select magical skills. As a GM I would be completely willing to allow a mundane to pick up the Banishing skill, if he had a good enough back story (Excorcists for example). Which adds to the Attack of Will, I believe.

(Another solution would be to "buy" a service from a spirit. You talk to the summoner, and he commands the spirit to perform any 1 service for the character.)

(Or heck, if your hardcore, take Spirit Pact at Character Creation. Then take the free spirit as a high loyalty contact, and call in favors when you really need it.)

[AngelisStorm]

what about a capsule bullet filled with a FAB strain?

But doesn't the FAB have to be alive to be effective? A bullet doesn't seem like a very good enviroment to stay alive... BUT how about a mace canister, so you can spray it out? (I haven't read those rules lately though, and I think FAB might not be lethal enough for this use.)

So what about the Possessed bullet? If you had a possessed baseball bat or sword, and you hit a spirit with it, wouldn't it count as a spirit vs. spirit attack, and thus bypass immunity to normal weapons? Same reasoning for the bullet.

[Daier Mune]

But doesn't the FAB have to be alive to be effective? A bullet doesn't seem like a very good enviroment to stay alive... BUT how about a mace canister, so you can spray it out? (I haven't read those rules lately though, and I think FAB might not be lethal enough for this use.)

So what about the Possessed bullet? If you had a possessed baseball bat or sword, and you hit a spirit with it, wouldn't it count as a spirit vs. spirit attack, and thus bypass immunity to normal weapons? Same reasoning for the bullet.

hmm, good point about the fragility of FAB. injection bolt from an xbow? Ares Super Squirt?

i've wondered about the possessed bullet myself.

i remember a while ago here on the boards i mentioned the idea of creating a dual-natured laser using a high-powered Lucifer Lamp (Frank Trollman added that such a weapon would require something like Naga Emeralds, which are apparently also dual-natured). we've house-ruled that Attacks of Will can use Banishing or any melee combat skill.

[Stahlseele]

fab-spray-guns . . i am thinking ghostbusters 2, psycho-slime somehow o.O

[AngelisStorm]

i remember a while ago here on the boards i mentioned the idea of creating a dual-natured laser using a high-powered Lucifer Lamp (Frank Trollman added that such a weapon would require something like Naga Emeralds, which are apparently also dual-natured).

O-O Wow... while it wouldn't be even remotely practical, you know some Corp out there has built a death ray (laser) for killing super spirits on a rampage... While it might only piss off Cthulhu, anything less powerful... *evil grin*

(Oh, and I like the Ares Super Squirt idea.)

"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon powered death ray, and take over the world!"
"If life gives you a crowbar, use it to beat the hell out of the guy with the lemon powered death ray, and use it to take over the world!"

[crizh]

Edit#2: Two previous threads that popped up when I searched on "astral bullet". Both appear to be pertinent to your question.
Improvised Astral Weapons
guns from astral space

While interesting, both those threads are SR3. Good points are raised but nothing that really applies to the SR4 'crunch' which governs possessed inanimate objects.

In theory I can see why I might have a possessed bullet simply engage in Astral Combat with any Astral Form it struck, I might also point out that the 'strength' of such a bullets Astral Form is governed not by the physical material it is made from but by the Force/Essence/Magic of whatever makes it dual natured. Bullets made from tissue paper are rarely effective.

However these points are moot. There are explicit SR4 rules governing how such dual-natured objects interact with Astral Forms.

As Spirits Bound to inanimate objects they are incapable of self-locomotion and thus presumably cannot engage in Astral Combat. The rules in Street Magic say nothing about performing mini Astral Combats when one strikes an Astral Form with a possessed object. The rules in Street Magic are silent on Astral Momentum, what happens when one Astral Form is forced through another, etc, etc.

The rules in Street Magic say that a Possessed inanimate Weapon does it's full normal damage to Astral Forms due to its dual-nature.

Not that I think that this is a good thing. I just can't see anything in the SR4 rules-set that says otherwise.

[Daier Mune]

i'm certainly not an expert on magic, but i thought there was some kind of reaction when an dual-natured object/creature tried to pass through an astral barrier at high speeds. maybe it wasn't damaging, nescisarily, but i thought getting forced through a solid wall of force would be disruptive. wouldn't a dual-natured bullet (be it by possession or construction) passing through a manifested spirit have the same effect?

[Kyoto Kid]

Per canon, I believe that the only way to make a 'magic bullet' would be using anchoring and a bunch of karma. And that won't really make the bullet itself damaging, it'll just be the vehicle that delivers the f9 'Slay Spirit' spell with linked 'Detect Spirit' trigger. So in order to make that work, you'd have to:

1. Learn Slay Spirit and Detect Spirit
2. Learn the Anchoring metamagic
3. Invest a bunch of karma on a dual spell anchored into the bullet.
4. Be willing to give the anchored spells (which provide a material link to the original mage) to your mundane friend.
5. Suffer drain (even if you're miles away) at the moment that the spell actually goes off.
6. Being astrally active, the anchored spell will still set off alarm wards whenever you cross them, and could potentially be forcibly deactivated if passing through a strong enough ward.
7. Also, the anchor won't discriminate between friendly, enemy, and neutral spirits. So when the watcher approaches you to pass on a message from your mage friend, or to investigate why a mundane is carrying an anchoring focus, he'll go *poof* and the spell will be used up.
8. What's worse, the mundane won't even know that the spell suffered premature detonation (snicker), and will be surprised when it doesn't work and he needs it to.

...ahhh, just get a naval gun or drop an FAE on it (as long as it isn't a fire elemental). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[FrankTrollman]

There's dual natured marble in some of the Alcherae. So if you dug some of that out and carved it into bullet-shape you ought to be able to make dual bullets. Horribly expensive, but doable.

-Frank

[Dr Funfrock]

What I'm trying to figure out here is at what point "dual-natured" automatically equalled "beats immunity to normal weapons". Foci are dual-natured, but don't hurt spirits. Weapon Foci only work whilst bound, and it's clearly indicated that they have to actually be held by the mage to do anything. Throwing a weapon-foci knife at a spirit does nothing. So it obviously takes more than just being dual-natured.

Am I missing something really obvious here, or what?

[crizh]

What I'm trying to figure out here is at what point "dual-natured" automatically equalled "beats immunity to normal weapons". Foci are dual-natured, but don't hurt spirits. Weapon Foci only work whilst bound, and it's clearly indicated that they have to actually be held by the mage to do anything. Throwing a weapon-foci knife at a spirit does nothing. So it obviously takes more than just being dual-natured.

Am I missing something really obvious here, or what?

Please, don't go there.

Technically there's nothing in the description of Immunity to Normal Weapons to indicate that it doesn't apply to dual-natured creatures, spirits or Projecting Magicians using 'unarmed' Astral Combat.

[Slicing 'really' thin]

I suppose 'technically' Dual-Natured is a Critter Power and therefore beats ItNW. In which case everything that is 'Dual-Natured' does the trick.

As to Foci, I'm not sure active Foci are ever described as Dual-Natured, as having Astral Forms yes, as Dual-Natured, AFAIK, no.

Astrally Perceiving Magicians have an Astral Form, that can be engaged in Astral Combat, they are not, however, Dual-Natured.

[FrankTrollman]

Immunity to Normal Weapons is a physical power and only applies to the physical world. Anything which extends into the astral plane is therefore bypassing it. Same reason why the Concealment Power doesn't affect astral perception.

-Frank

[crizh]

Immunity to Normal Weapons is a physical power and only applies to the physical world. Anything which extends into the astral plane is therefore bypassing it. Same reason why the Concealment Power doesn't affect astral perception.

-Frank

So an Astrally Perceiving Magician can use Astral Combat to melee Materialized Spirits?

Cool...

[Blade]

So the troll can throw an astrally perceiving magician (or a dual natured critter) at a spirit?

[FrankTrollman]

So the troll can throw an astrally perceiving magician (or a dual natured critter) at a spirit?

Sure. And do Charisma/2 damage with him. Woot!

Yes, Metahuman body is listed as a weapon on page 149 of the basic book. It's pretty underwhelming.

-Frank

[CanRay]

I don't know... One of the contacts my PCs are taking is "Krunch" and "Klub", a Troll/Dwarf team that is designed to use Metahuman Bodies as weapons.

Well, one Metahuman body. "Klub" lives up to his name, let's leave it at that.

[crizh]

Sure. And do Charisma/2 damage with him. Woot!

Damn, now I need to go find a cloth to clean off this monitor.

Again.

[Jackstand]

Immunity to Normal Weapons is a physical power and only applies to the physical world. Anything which extends into the astral plane is therefore bypassing it. Same reason why the Concealment Power doesn't affect astral perception.

-Frank

I think that this wouldn't work. The physical body is still contacting the physical, manifest spirit, even if it is also in contact on the astral plane. For the same reason that physical attributes are used by a perceiving astral combatant, the physical 'body' of the bullet would limit it from enjoying the full benefits of its astral presence. If you had an entirely astral bullet, then I might be on board, but this is a weapon, which is magical, but not a magical weapon.

[K2that'sit]

I think that this wouldn't work. The physical body is still contacting the physical, manifest spirit, even if it is also in contact on the astral plane. For the same reason that physical attributes are used by a perceiving astral combatant, the physical 'body' of the bullet would limit it from enjoying the full benefits of its astral presence. If you had an entirely astral bullet, then I might be on board, but this is a weapon, which is magical, but not a magical weapon.

But then it is no longer a normal weapon

[Jackstand]

It's still a normal weapon, as far as its capacity as a weapon is concerned. It's not a non-magical thing, but it is a non-magical weapon.

[Dr Funfrock]

I think that this wouldn't work. The physical body is still contacting the physical, manifest spirit, even if it is also in contact on the astral plane. For the same reason that physical attributes are used by a perceiving astral combatant, the physical 'body' of the bullet would limit it from enjoying the full benefits of its astral presence. If you had an entirely astral bullet, then I might be on board, but this is a weapon, which is magical, but not a magical weapon.

I'm not sure if that doesn't contradict how Weapon Focus or Killing Hands seems to work.

[Jackstand]

It doesn't. Those are magical weapons. They're not effective because they're magical, but because of the specific sort of magic that they are. The magic involved in killing hands or a weapon focus specifically enhances the capacity of those objects insofar as they are weapons. It isn't a matter of being a weapon which is magical, but of being a magical weapon.