Shadowrun may not be Rambo, Cocking the bow Options

[Chrysalis]

Greets,

I have been busy writing Arsenal's sheets into Excel and I cam across something that I am not sure how it should be read.

A bow does STR +2 P damage. Does that mean that if I make my John J. Rambo troll character with his super human 12 strength he would be making 14P of damage (15 with explosive arrows)?

Is that right? 15P is the equivalent of a HE mortar round.

Also Hammerhead arrow is missing its price and availability. Anyone know what they are?

[Drogos]

Yes, Trollbowmen is broken, as has been discussed ad infanitum. Or at least that is the popular perception. I like my one shot killorating machine. Also remember the Mortars do area damage where as the bow is a single target. The real issue is the better than Assault Canon, but still, whatev...they only spend half thier IP readying their weapon anyways.

[Iota]

Actually YES, Rambo is possible.

I´ve got such a troll in my group. He is pinning the people he shoots right away to the next door, tree, or what ever.

[Fuchs]

I banned that in my game. I don't want bows and arrows in my game that beat modern firearms, especially not modern heavy weapons.

[Blade]

First, for these ratings, you can replace "bow" with "ballista" and "arrows" with "huge things with a dikoted head".
I don't know how a ballista fares compared to a HE mortar round, maybe it's not that ridiculous.

Anyway, it's a know problem that has already been discussed to death several times around here.

[Fuchs]

First, for these ratings, you can replace "bow" with "ballista" and "arrows" with "huge things with a dikoted head".
I don't know how a ballista fares compared to a HE mortar round, maybe it's not that ridiculous.

Anyway, it's a know problem that has already been discussed to death several times around here.

If ballistas were on par with cannons, then we'd still be using them. We don't. If "Huge thing with dikoted head" would be better than "sabot round" we'd be using it instead.

But my main reason for banning bows is that I simply do not want them in my SR game. Their mere presence ruins my fun.

[Malicant]

Just as a sidenote, modern firearms are not better per se, they are safer and more reliable to use than the old stuff.

I have no problem with a hightech bow being on par with a hightech ballistic weapon. I do have a problem with the gamebalance issues that arise with a bow doing the same damage as an assault cannon does.

[PlatonicPimp]

most people just rule it as strength divided by 2, like melee weapons.

[ArkonC]

most people just rule it as strength divided by 2, like melee weapons.

"Most people" would be an overstatement, it is my understanding that this issue doesn't even reach most people's tables...

Incidentally, the maximum would be what? 20P? For a troll with exceptional and optimized Str equaling 12(18)?
20P... Sounds nice...

[CanRay]

OK, someone has to say it...

"Elves of the world, unite!"

[reepneep]

Has anyone made rules for fragmenting arrows? This has got me wanting a 'Piecemaker'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

You get IntraWebz points for Discworld reference!

[Apathy]

Also, the "Str" in this case is the strength rating of the bow, not the strength of the character. So your uber-troll can't just pick up any bow and do 15P. He's got to have it specially made to deliver this kind of thrust, which would have a stiff-ness on par with the leaf spring of a half-ton truck. And it's single shot, so players are still usually better off with two narrow bursts from an AR.

In general, I find the damage codes for both bows and melee weapons to be a bit wonky, but it hasn't been a real problem in our game. The skew just makes those things slightly more competative with firearms, and results in a wider variety of playable character styles and flavors.

[KarmaInferno]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detritus_(Discworld) :

In contradiction to his species preference, his weapon of choice is not a club, but rather a converted siege-crossbow. Originally this fired a blunt but enormous metal bolt, but after further modifications he made it to shoot a large bundle of wooden bolts at once and renamed the bow as the 'Piecemaker' (a pun on the Colt S.A.A. 'Peacemaker' Revolver or on the nuclear missile "The Peacekeeper MX"), due to the incredible destructive power of the new configuration. Due to the various forces they are under, the bolts, once fired, quickly become an expanding cloud of high-speed burning wooden shrapnel. The first time it was fired, it removed several archery targets, the bunker wall behind them, and a flock of seagulls directly above Detritus. Other notable 'targets' include a bandit who was the first to open the door of Detritus' coach, the gates of von Überwald castle near Bonk, an entire chimney, a weathercock, large parts of roofing, and practically all of Sir Samuel Vimes' shrubbery. It has on occasion been fired at people, but Vimes has generally forbidden this except in special circumstances (such as during the initial attempt to catch Carcer in Night Watch). He prefers to allow Detritus to use it when trying to get into a building, as it is able to open both the front and back doors at the same time. Detritus is very attached to the Piecemaker, so much so that he tried to take it as part of his uniform to a major social occasion. Vimes has taken great care to impress on Detritus that "When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend", however, the lesson still has yet to quite stick, and when the Piecemaker is loaded, everyone in the blast radius with any sense at all tends to be extremely cautious not to make any sudden movements. The sound of Detritus loading his crossbow is described in various Discworld novels with phrases similar to 'the sound of a piano being strangled by a goose'.

[Wesley Street]

I wish I brought my SR rulebooks with me to work because I could swear bow damage was STR/2 + 2. Either way I have no problem with bows. Even if you have the CyberTrollbowman-scenario they're single shot weapons that can only damage one target. Speaking as someone who practiced sport archery in his childhood, a single well-placed fiberglass shaft arrow can rip through flesh and puncture organs just as easily as a bullet. When dealing with a tank I tell the shooter he found a chink in the armor and tore a piece off. I assume the archery skill teaches the practitioner to find the weak spot on a target.

[Kronk2]

Just as a sidenote, modern firearms are not better per se, they are safer and more reliable to use than the old stuff.

I have no problem with a hightech bow being on par with a hightech ballistic weapon. I do have a problem with the gamebalance issues that arise with a bow doing the same damage as an assault cannon does.

Mostly we went with Guns because its easier to learn to use them, and the penetrated plate armor better than bows.

[Earlydawn]

I banned that in my game. I don't want bows and arrows in my game that beat modern firearms, especially not modern heavy weapons.

Precisely. A good amount of common sense is necessary with bows. I dig the idea of trolls pinning people to walls with racially-designed bows, but I'd never let one take out a tank or something.

[Ramorta]

"Most people" would be an overstatement, it is my understanding that this issue doesn't even reach most people's tables...

Incidentally, the maximum would be what? 20P? For a troll with exceptional and optimized Str equaling 12(18)?
20P... Sounds nice...

Actually, I believe the maximum is limited only by your character's Nuyen. There is no hard cap on the rating of the bow, so you could in theory buy a rating 2000 bow on character creation. (the availability is still 2) Then take Mr. Lucky, with his 1 strength, and fire it with a -3998 dice pool penalty, using a long shot test, and still get 8 dice to try to hit something. That would end up with 2002P damage, on character creation.

*head desk*

[ArkonC]

Actually, I believe the maximum is limited only by your character's Nuyen. There is no hard cap on the rating of the bow, so you could in theory buy a rating 2000 bow on character creation. (the availability is still 2) Then take Mr. Lucky, with his 1 strength, and fire it with a -3998 dice pool penalty, using a long shot test, and still get 8 dice to try to hit something. That would end up with 2002P damage, on character creation.

*head desk*

No, actually, at chargen equipment is limited to availability 12 and rating 6, so you couldn't even get a bow made for a human with str 5(7)...
But apart from that, you are correct in that the rules don't prohibit this...

EDIT: YAY! I win the internet again!

[paws2sky]

One small, but important, thing to consider: Rating.

Rating is capped at 6 for starting characters. Bows cost Rating x 100. Therefore, the best bow you can get at character creation is Rating 6, which inflicts 8P. That's very much in line with other large two-handed ranged weapons, like shotguns, for instance.

Where the rules break down, IMO, is after character creation when you can get high rating bows with Availability 2.

-paws

EDIT: doh! beaten to the punch.

[Ramorta]

No, actually, at chargen equipment is limited to availability 12 and rating 6, so you couldn't even get a bow made for a human with str 5(7)...
But apart from that, you are correct in that the rules don't prohibit this...

Ahh, quite true. Though anyone who would allow someone to use something like that in their game should probably be shot with it. lol

[Leofski]

Not really. A giant bow is going to do some serious damage to a meta and will penetrate most personal armor types better. Bear in mind that even a strength 10 troll is ingame terms as strong as a police patrol car and strength 20 troll is as strong as a bus, putting those forces into an appropriately designed bow is going to do serious damage to a man sized target.

Is it counter-intuitive to have bowmen shoot through tanks? Absolutely. But its completely reasonable that they go through guys. The issue comes from Shadowrun's all in one damage scale, which is beneficial in almost all other areas, but here causes a spot of sillyness.

[Dr Funfrock]

See, depending on the style of the game, I can sort of see bows working up to about Rating 10 as written. I mean that's well over even augmented Human maximum, so we're talking serious strength to just pull this thing. Your bow is going to be taller than a Troll, and made from multiple laves of sprung steel and titanium alloy, probably a bunch of other stuff in their as well, I dunno. It's big enough, and hard enough, that you could beat a man to death with it or use it as an improvised pole-arm. Each of the arrows is about 6 foot long, an inch across, and made from the same crazy allows, with at least a carbon hardened head, if not some kind of dikote or some shit.

Now understand, this is a silly weapon, and if I'm trying to a run a "proper" campaign, I wouldn't let someone take it. On the other hand my friend is running a game set in Caracas where we break out all the biggest guns we can find (he was a bit miffed when he threw a Dragon at us and I responded with "Right, I pull out my rocket launcher"), and we've had a Troll Physad called One running around with this thing. He uses it to grapple onto ships, put holes in spirits, shoot through truck tyres, and just rip holes the size of a baseball in people. On one occasion he fired an arrow into the side of a freighter, leapt onto the arrow, and then jumped up to grab the edge of the boat. Sure, in a realistic game, it's a silly idea but with the slightly John Woo / Black Lagoon action tone we were going for it was great fun.

[reepneep]

You get IntraWebz points for Discworld reference!

Yay! I win teh IntraWebz!

Just as a sidenote, modern firearms are not better per se, they are safer and more reliable to use than the old stuff.

I have no problem with a hightech bow being on par with a hightech ballistic weapon. I do have a problem with the gamebalance issues that arise with a bow doing the same damage as an assault cannon does.

I think this is more a problem with the lousy damage code on the Panther than the troll archer.

[Shiloh]

Just as a sidenote, modern firearms are not better per se, they are safer and more reliable to use than the old stuff.

I have no problem with a hightech bow being on par with a hightech ballistic weapon. I do have a problem with the gamebalance issues that arise with a bow doing the same damage as an assault cannon does.

Um, no. Firearms have a higher RoF, easier-to-carry ammo, higher muzzle velocity (and therefore flatter trajectory, higher energy) than a bow. Firearms blow through more steel armour than arrows do. If a mechanically-winched arrow-hurler could do what an assault cannon does, they'd be mounted on modern APCs.