[X] My Assistant

[Ed_209a]

This archery thing is starting to sound like the "Enterprise vs Star Destroyer" arguement. We need to inject some facts here.

I feel like a STR 3. RAW says I can usually lift 45lbs over my head. I can handle a 65lb compound bow comfortably.

If that relationship holds, a STR 18 troll can use a 385lb compound bow as easily as I do a 65lb one.

A guy who posted on Yahoo Answers suggested a hunting arrow should be 10 grains per pound of draw weight. That means a 385lb bow should fire 3850 grain arrow. That is slightly over a 1/2 lb.


Searchy... searchy... searchy...


Well, the best archery ballistics calc I could find wouldn't spec out a troll bow (385lb firing 1/2 lb arrows), but it did give me an "ork bow" (200lb firing 1000gr(65g) arrows).

The arrows would move out at 370fps and generate 303 ft-lbs of energy. That is about 10% less energy than that of a 9mm pistol bullet.

On a projectile that heavy, the difference between energy and momentum may be important.

[Aaron]

And where is the cannon round? Is it a bullet? Or a rocket?
It was said that a heavy tank cannon would do 18P against a barrier. Where is that rule?
Please, no snark comments. Just tell me where that rule is.

No snark, it's right there. The cannons use assault cannon rounds. Assault cannon rounds aren't bullets, and they aren't on the list. My position is that if they're not on the list, there is no adjustment; consider "Target muddy." There is no modifier, and so it's not on there.

You'll be mentioning Combat spells next, I imagine.

[Fuchs]

I don't really understand how you can say "it's right there" and then say cannon rounds are not on the list. Especially if you also notice that combat spells also have no change, but are on the list.

So, is there a FAQ ruling on cannon damage on barriers?

If not, where does the "cannon rounds do full DV" rule come from?

[Aaron]

Combat spells have no change and are on the list, it's true. However, Combat spells have a lot of odd rules about them (threshold of OR, half armor, etc.), so it makes sense that it be included on the table.

As far as where the rule comes from, I'd have to say it comes from logic (with a small 'l'). There are a couple of deductions you could make:

• The table lists modifiers to DV.
• The table is not exhaustive.
• Assault cannon rounds are not on the table.
• Therefore, assault cannon rounds do not have a modifier to DV.

Or, if you prefer to believe that the table is exhaustive,

• The table lists modifiers to DV.
• The table is exhaustive.
• Assault cannon rounds are not on the table.
• Assault cannon rounds are described as explosive.
• Explosives are on the table.
• Therefore, assault cannon rounds have a modifier of x2.

Either case supports my original argument. I'd be happy to discuss any potential flaws in my logic or alternate theories.

[Fuchs]

If we're talking logic, then we need to detail what kind of explosives AC rounds are - designed to breach armor, or to explode like a grenade? From the lack of a blast radius, and given that evne minigrandes from 40mm launchers have such, I'd say they are not explosives like grenades. That would make them more like armor-piercing rounds.

Also, if we are talking game logic, then nothing would prevent a troll to fix some high-explosive to his arrow, and use it as a delivery system, using the explosive rule vs. barriers.

Of course, if we're entering house rules, or logic-derivates, then I'd simply rule that no bow can reach the damage the rules would give him if made for and pulled by a troll with maxed strength.

[Stahlseele]

why the hell not?
strap some dynamite with burning lint onto the arrow, let the arrow fly into the wall, explosive close to barrier, user FAR far away . . boom and through o.O

[CanRay]

Bo and Luke as Shadowrunners?

Actually, that could work.

[Stahlseele]

sadly, that would probably be way more effective and everything than my usual black ops like group <.< . .

[CanRay]

Now I have an idea for an adventure...

Anyone have Shadowrun stats for a '69 Dodge Charger?

[Stahlseele]

police car sedan?

[Kerberos]

If we're talking logic, then we need to detail what kind of explosives AC rounds are - designed to breach armor, or to explode like a grenade? From the lack of a blast radius, and given that evne minigrandes from 40mm launchers have such, I'd say they are not explosives like grenades. That would make them more like armor-piercing rounds.

Also, if we are talking game logic, then nothing would prevent a troll to fix some high-explosive to his arrow, and use it as a delivery system, using the explosive rule vs. barriers.

Of course, if we're entering house rules, or logic-derivates, then I'd simply rule that no bow can reach the damage the rules would give him if made for and pulled by a troll with maxed strength.

But really if you want to use logic you might as well ban bows totally, because the rules don't just overstate their damage, they also grossly overestimate their rate of fire and their accuracy. Realism would mandate that bows be nerfed into oblivion.

[Aaron]

I've seen archers put eight or nine arrows into a target during a thirty-second speed round. The targets are smaller than a human torso.

[Kerberos]

I've seen archers put eight or nine arrows into a target during a thirty-second speed round. The targets are smaller than a human torso.

In other words archers in a speed shooting competition can almost match the rate of fire that Shadowrun archers are able to uphold under combat conditions. Pretty much proves my point.

For comparison purposes the world record for revolvers is puting 6 rounds into human sized targets, reload and put 6 more rounds into the in the space of 3 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ5Pts9dUdA. 12 times the speed an unaugmented character would be able to manage in Shadowrun.

[Stahlseele]

In other words archers in a speed shooting competition can almost match the rate of fire that Shadowrun archers are able to uphold under combat conditions. Pretty much proves my point.

For comparison purposes the world record for revolvers is puting 6 rounds into human sized targets, reload and put 6 more rounds into the in the space of 3 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ5Pts9dUdA. 12 times the speed an unaugmented character would be able to manage in Shadowrun.

bolded the important one in there . . we ARE talking about augmented people who are from birth stronger, faster and more resilent due to their meta race allready . . and then figure in cyber/bio/nano/gen-tech and voila, it fits more or less . .
by the way, trolls get +5 to STR, does that mean a Troll-Baby is almost as strong, if not stronger, than the average human grown up adult man in his prime?

[Aaron]

In other words archers in a speed shooting competition can almost match the rate of fire that Shadowrun archers are able to uphold under combat conditions. Pretty much proves my point.

Sorry, I should have mentioned these were amateur archers, not professionals. "Average-stat" folks with day jobs that shoot maybe once or twice a week.

[Kerberos]

bolded the important one in there . . we ARE talking about augmented people who are from birth stronger, faster and more resilent due to their meta race allready . . and then figure in cyber/bio/nano/gen-tech and voila, it fits more or less . .
by the way, trolls get +5 to STR, does that mean a Troll-Baby is almost as strong, if not stronger, than the average human grown up adult man in his prime?

I'm not really seeing your point, or at least not how it relates to what I said. I'm pointing out that the rate of fire (and accuracy) of bows is grossly inflated compared to guns. The strength of trolls don't really enter into it.

Sorry, I should have mentioned these were amateur archers, not professionals. "Average-stat" folks with day jobs that shoot maybe once or twice a week.

That does change things somewhat, but even professionals with ten years of training couldn't maintain more than 10-12 arrows per minute under combat conditions http://www.militaryfactory.com/medieval_longbow.asp (though of cause the rate of fire in a speed shooting greatly exceeds that). That is only half if what a Shadowrun archer can do. On the other hand I have no doubt that any moron you pick of the street and give a week of training can shoot the 40 round a minute with an automatic riffle that Shadowrun would permit. And likely with an accuracy that isn't to far from what the seasoned veteran archers or perhaps even exceeds it.

[Aaron]

That does change things somewhat, but even professionals with ten years of training couldn't maintain more than 10-12 arrows per minute under combat conditions [...]

Granted, but to make a rational argument, you also have to consider combat conditions for the quick-draw and speed-shooting artists. I'm fairly certain they're firing on a stationary target, at close range, and the only thing they're fighting is a stopwatch.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm not fussed about people getting real ultimate power by taking a big gun.

Several reasons:

A) A bow with a huge draw is going to be seriously big and seriously non concealable.

B) After the first rebar is shot through someone, lonestar is going to be on the lookout for 'the really big bow and troll'

Plus to make the bow thing work you have to max out strength which is SR4's gimp stat. You'd be way more effective if you made a super sniper elf to be honest. Atleast agility adds to skills that are relevant for other things than 'shooting'

That and you cannot do it at char gen.