Indirect spells..., Shooting indirectly at a target Options

[The Jopp]

Indirect combat spells and cover.

If I decide to shoot a fireball (AOE) at someone in good cover (-4) and instead of aiming at him giving me a -4 dicepool mod what would happen if I fire at a location, say just beside him and not AT him.

The cover modifier is for targeting an individual but what I shoot the spot just beside him, say 5 cm to the left…

Would I as the caster have full dicepool and the target a +4 to dodge instead as they can take cover?

[Eryk the Red]

According to the FAQ, we'd say you're still shooting for him, making him the primary target. Thus, you'd suffer appropriate mods for shooting at him.

[Dashifen]

See above; Eryk's correct. Here's the exact quote:

When casting an Indirect Combat spell, do you need to see the target? Or can you cast at a target completely behind cover since they use ranged combat rules?

You do need the see the primary target of the spell. However, as noted in the errata, Indirect Combat spells will affect other targets that are unseen by the caster as long as they are caught within the spell's area of effect.

Note that the same ruling for grenades applies to Indirect Combat spells cast "at the ground" -- if the attempt is to catch targets in the spell's effect radius, treat it as an Opposed Test, no matter where the spell is actually aimed.

And, here's the ruling for grenades referenced in the second part of the quote:

Isn't tossing a grenade on the ground by someone's feet (a Success Test) easier than trying to hit them directly with a grenade (an Opposed Test)? Does everyone caught in the blast get a chance to dodge/react?

If the intent is to catch a target in the blast radius, then it should be an Opposed Test, whether the grenade is actually thrown at the target or thrown a few meters away.

If the intent is to catch a group of targets in the blast radius, the attacker still picks one as the primary target. The Opposed Test is made between the attacker and that target only, with scatter determined accordingly. Any targets caught in the blast radius make Damage Resistance Tests as normal.

If you haven't read it, here's where you can find the full FAQ: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml .

[Tarantula]

Agreed. Now, if you starting choosing meters of difference (not centimeters) I'd likely start letting things slide. If you see a hallway T junction, and you hear some people and you're pretty sure they're around the corners, so you drop a force 6 fireball in the middle of the T, I'd go ahead and not penalize you, just as I wouldn't penalize you for trying to land a grenade in the middle of the hallway.

[Apathy]

I would suggest that you can declare your primary target to be a spot on the ground, or in the air, which happens to be near the target. In this case, the defender still gets an opposed test to dodge, but the cover modifiers should reflect the cover between the point of origin of the blast and the defender, not between the caster and the defender.

[Ryu]

Thats one of the FAQ rulings I certainly don´t like. The book offers another mechanic.

If you target a spot on the ground, and reduce deviation to zero, further hits accomplish nothing. Your best damage code is "base".

[RunnerPaul]

Thats one of the FAQ rulings I certainly don´t like.

Me neither. It introduces a "Bag-of-rats" problem into SR4 to solve a problem that isn't a problem.

Here's how I handle Indirect AoE Combat Spells:

Spells, even indirect AoE spells, require the caster to synchronize their aura with some target object, living or inanimate. Theoretical "points in space" do not present an aura that allows for spellcasting, and gasses and vapors typically do not have the density to have an aura substantial enough to be synchronized to. If an inanimate object is used for the target of an indirect AoE spell, then the object rolls vs. the ranged attack, substituting it's Object Resistance Threshold number for the Reaction rating (even though indirect spells are normally exempt from object resistance). If the spellcaster gets reduced to zero successes, then the spell fails to have any effect, otherwise it goes off as normal -- Living targets in the area of effect roll their own reactions vs. the spellcaster's original check, and inanimate objects, including the target object, merely resist damage using the appropriate armor rating.

For grenades, I do the same as Ryu describes above. Throwing to a location, and not a particular target comes at the sacrifice of being able to stage damage up against the target with a skilled toss/launch.

[Apathy]

To each their own, but I dislike the idea of taking away some of the only utility that Indirect AOE spells have. They have higher drain and allow both a dodge and a soak test, and they allow the target to add armor in their roll. One of the only reason to get them is because they're the only spells that shoot around corners. If instead you determine that you've got to target something other than a point in space to be the focal point of the explosion, and that this focal point gets and additional resistance roll, than the utility of ID AOE spells diminishes to almost worthless.

Edit:

[ Spoiler ]

Yeah!, I'm finally "Running" instead of just "Moving"! Only 6,500 more posts to make Imortal Elf...

[Earlydawn]

I haven't dealt with this situation yet. In theory, though, I'd allow them the normal defense as though it had been cast at them directly, although I would calculate the cover modifiers between the blast and the target, instead of the caster and target. Additionally, whether the target dodges or not, the effect kicks in regardless. If he dives out of the way, guess what? That nice spot behind the steel boxes is likely on fire.

[Ryu]

To each their own, but I dislike the idea of taking away some of the only utility that Indirect AOE spells have. They have higher drain and allow both a dodge and a soak test, and they allow the target to add armor in their roll. One of the only reason to get them is because they're the only spells that shoot around corners. If instead you determine that you've got to target something other than a point in space to be the focal point of the explosion, and that this focal point gets and additional resistance roll, than the utility of ID AOE spells diminishes to almost worthless.

Edit:

[ Spoiler ]

Yeah!, I'm finally "Running" instead of just "Moving"! Only 6,500 more posts to make Imortal Elf...

So Apathy is (being) happy about running instead of just moving... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Congratulations!

It is not taking away any utility, as you are still free to indeed choose a target! But in some situations you want to get as many targets as possible into the AoE, more damage to a single target be damned.

[RunnerPaul]

If instead you determine that you've got to target something other than a point in space to be the focal point of the explosion

My houserule above is merely intended to keep consistency with the rest of spell targeting rules without stepping into the minefield of "Does the character intend to damage someone in the Area of Effect?" that the FAQ answers lay down. Keep in mind that the fluff background behind the targeting rules, that spellcasting is a process of aura synchronization between caster and target, has been a part of Shadowrun for about 18 years, so it's not as if I made this determination on my own -- the developers have been saying it for nearly two decades.

If point-of-space targeting is that vital, all that needs to be done is to treat air as having a sufficient Aura to allow it to be a valid target. Being a natural object, it'd only throw up a token resistance to your casting attempt.

[Dashifen]

Spells, even indirect AoE spells, require the caster to synchronize their aura with some target object, living or inanimate. Theoretical "points in space" do not present an aura that allows for spellcasting, and gasses and vapors typically do not have the density to have an aura substantial enough to be synchronized to. If an inanimate object is used for the target of an indirect AoE spell, then the object rolls vs. the ranged attack, substituting it's Object Resistance Threshold number for the Reaction rating (even though indirect spells are normally exempt from object resistance). If the spellcaster gets reduced to zero successes, then the spell fails to have any effect, otherwise it goes off as normal -- Living targets in the area of effect roll their own reactions vs. the spellcaster's original check, and inanimate objects, including the target object, merely resist damage using the appropriate armor rating.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

I like this a lot for spells. I'm still not sold on the grenade solution, but that can be mitigated by not clumping up when in combat situations.

[Aaron]

In my games, an Indirect Combat spell is cast more or less on yourself or on an area very close you yourself, and you "shoot" the effect at the target. That justifies the need to use the ranged combat rules (albeit with Spellcasting).

Yes, this means you can't toss a Fireball into a car unless it's through an opening. It also means you don't have to see the target(s) and you can use an Indirect Combat spell to shoot through barriers.

[Muspellsheimr]

How I would rule it is you target a point in space for the AoE. Every subject in the area makes a Reaction - 2 test, with Hits reducing the Hits of the spellcasters test. Each target then resists Force + Net Hits damage, as normal. If they reduce Net Hits to zero or less, they somehow escape unscathed.

For grenades, you target a point in space, with Hits reducing scatter as normal. Excess Hits do nothing. Each target then makes a Reaction - 2 test, with each Hit "moving" them 1 meter away from the blast point. Any subject still effectively in range resists damage as normal.

[SCARed]

i second Aarons post.

in earlier editions, the spells like fireball were manipulation spells (and actually created the damaging matter). and i can see no reason, why things should have changed only because these nasty things have been moved to a different spell section.

[Eryk the Red]

For all explosive attacks, grenade or indirect spells, I've been having all affected characters roll Reaction. Each hit increases the effective distance between the character and center of the blast by 1 (for the purpose of determining damage). The characters are not actually moved (unless dramatically appropriate). Basically, enough hits could place a character "outside" the blast radius (or for grenades, put them "farther away", thus reducing the DV).

It's worked pretty well so far.

[Raizer]

In most cases i'vehad the reaction roll added to the resistance test.

So, we get Reaction + Defense + 1/2 Impact.

Anyone figure out what a spell uses if its AOE and targetted at someone for scatter?

[Tarantula]

AOE Spells have no scatter. They go where you want.