[Rules Question] Invisibility or concealment on the astral. Is it possible? Options

[Hat]

So my group has been trying to figure out how to conceal themselves from prying eyes on the astral. They're also curious whether there's a way to conceal a spirit. Infiltration arguably works, but no spirit has it so defaults to Force -1 Die typically. Masking would help a projecting mage, but only to a certain extent.

Is there a way of doing this? Would it even be a good idea?

With a sweep of his...

Hat

[Tarantula]

Invisibility? Sure, the mana spell would work, and they wouldn't see you. They would see the aura of the invisibility spell however, making it mostly worthless.

Concealment, wouldn't work for much the same reason.

[nezumi]

1) Yes, there is astral concealment. There are astral features you can hide behind, etc. Stealth still works, although the rules have changed a bit (okay, a lot), but ultimately, it comes down to things like LOS and blending in. Doesn't help so much against detection spells, but still...

2) Invisibility does NOT work on the astral, since invisibility only affects sight, and all spells are always visible on the astral. Something I've been wanting to pull over on a GM but haven't yet is a mind manipulation spell along the lines of 'ignore me' or 'somebody else's problem' - the spell makes the subject ignore the caster. Because it doesn't matter if he sees the spell or not, it should work on the astral.

[Hat]

Nezumi, when you're talking about "Yes, there is astral concealment" you're really just referring to the use of infiltration, correct? The spirit power concealment is physical only, so obviously uselsess.

Basic answer - use infiltration unskilled and try to avoid LOS?

With a sweep of his...

Hat

[nezumi]

Infiltration?? No, I'm talking about good old Stealth. Although I do believe the spirit power concealment works as well.

[Fortune]

Concealment is a Physical Power, and as such does not work on the Astral.

Infiltration is basically the Stealth of SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sombranox]

Infilitration is the specific skill of the Stealth group that is used for sneaking/hiding, so yes infiltration.

Edit: Damn, Fortune beat me to it.

I can't remember if it was house rule or core, but I remember someone once talking about an Astral specialization of infiltration to represent understanding how to best hide from astral observers.

The assumption would be using things like other living matter to mask your aura or whatnot as well as knowing what can be seen through and what can't in the astral.

[Nefacio]

Infilitration is the specific skill of the Stealth group that is used for sneaking/hiding, so yes infiltration.

Edit: Damn, Fortune beat me to it.

I can't remember if it was house rule or core, but I remember someone once talking about an Astral specialization of infiltration to represent understanding how to best hide from astral observers.

The assumption would be using things like other living matter to mask your aura or whatnot as well as knowing what can be seen through and what can't in the astral.

I remember that as well, but mostly sure it was mentioned on a previous post. Anyway Im lazy to check but if it is somewhere is on the S&M.

[hyzmarca]

Concealment is a Physical Power, and as such does not work on the Astral.

Infiltration is basically the Stealth of SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Concealment can't be used on a purely astral subject. But, it can be used on a dual natured or a purely physical subject to protect them from detection by purely astral beings. Concealment helps the subject blend into the terrain and there are plenty of terrain features that can obfuscate a subject from astral perception.

[Tarantula]

Concealment can't be used on a purely astral subject. But, it can be used on a dual natured or a purely physical subject to protect them from detection by purely astral beings. Concealment helps the subject blend into the terrain and there are plenty of terrain features that can obfuscate a subject from astral perception.

Uhh, no. It can't be used on the astral plane, and has no effect on the astral plane whatsoever. Concealment makes a person harder to detect on the physical plane, by however you feel like explaining it. It is a physical power, and has no effect on the astral plane. Much like how a physical barrier does nothing to astral beings. Or how a camouflage jacket won't help you hide astrally either.

[Screamin Demon]

So infiltrate does indeed work on both sides of the planescape? That strikes me as odd as auras are splashes of color in an otherwise drab world. I heard someone mention something about LoS being the major deciding factor.
I have a ninja esque player who got spotted by a patroling astral spirit last game and he feels really jyped.
Exactly how does a mundane fella hide from astral perception?

[nezumi]

So infiltrate does indeed work on both sides of the planescape? That strikes me as odd as auras are splashes of color in an otherwise drab world. I heard someone mention something about LoS being the major deciding factor.

The world isn't drab. Living stuff glows. That includes animals, micro-organisms, plants, spore in the air, etc. Pollution would also taint the astral. Granted, if the character is standing in the middle of a cubicle or a server room, he'd be a lot easier to see, but that's the same as a person walking in the middle of a parking lot on the mundane.

[Mordinvan]

So infiltrate does indeed work on both sides of the planescape? That strikes me as odd as auras are splashes of color in an otherwise drab world. I heard someone mention something about LoS being the major deciding factor.
I have a ninja esque player who got spotted by a patroling astral spirit last game and he feels really jyped.
Exactly how does a mundane fella hide from astral perception?

Be on the other side of a wall.

[Screamin Demon]

The world isn't drab. Living stuff glows. That includes animals, micro-organisms, plants, spore in the air, etc. Pollution would also taint the astral. Granted, if the character is standing in the middle of a cubicle or a server room, he'd be a lot easier to see, but that's the same as a person walking in the middle of a parking lot on the mundane.

Yes Nezumi, hence the astral visibility modifier table. (SM pg. 114)

Mordinvan is saying if a mage has LoS then he can see the hiding individual, this makes sense to my logical mind, but game mechanically it makes mages the best security ever, and somewhat dampens stealth builds. Is there no way to cloak one's self from astral perception? I noticed that even the Masking power of adepts does nothing to conceal one's presence on the astral plane...

Would it be theme-destroying to allow new adept powers to be made? Or perhaps if one has the 'Astral' specialization to infiltrate?

[FrankTrollman]

Note also that the Concealment power reduces Perception dice pools, not Assensing dice pools. So even if it affected astral observers, it wouldn't reduce their astral observation dice pools and thuse wouldn't make it harder for watchers to astrally perceive your presence.

-Frank

[Mordinvan]

Someone else said it already but a specialized version of the control thoughts spell which says "ignore me" would do the job, or at least should, I just have no way to guess how you could make it work on more then a single group of people at once, and you'd have to know where all of your observers are unlike invisibility. But mages have masking meta magics, and it may be possible to make a spell which enhances one, or mimics one to total obsure your aura, but you'd have to ask frank about that, as I'm pretty much guessing.

[RunnerPaul]

Someone else said it already but a specialized version of the control thoughts spell which says "ignore me" would do the job

Sounds like the spell "See-Me-Not" from the Tom Dowd authored adventure module "Silver Angel" that came bundled with the first edition GM Screen. The target of the spell would become distracted whenever they encountered a particular visual stimulus, shown to them immediately upon spellcasting. So distracted, in fact, that they do not even notice that they're being manipulated. Also the spell did not wear off as long as it was sustained by the caster.

Not a bad spell, except for one catch: this highly specialized and mind-numbingly useful spell also came with a drain code of Light (One box of damage) and required only a single success to stage down to nothing (under SR1's variable staging).

If I were to recreate this spell under SR4, I'd make it a permanent mana LOS mental manipulation spell and give it a DV of (F / 2) +1. I'd also adjust the chance for the victim to shake mental control: instead of the willpower test every (Force) combat turns, the target gets to make the willpower test every (Force) minutes, and doesn't spend a complex action to do so. Mechanically, the caster chooses up to Force number of things they want not to be seen. When the target makes a perception test that could result in one of the designated things being seen (including exotic forms of "seeing" such as contour maps from ultrasound/radar, or remote camera feeds), the spell removes the perception test bonuses for objects that stand out and perceiver actively looking, if those bonuses would have applied, and applies the penalties for being distracted. The spellcaster's net hits (capped by Force) are also added to the Perception Test Threshold. The area effect version of See-Me-Not is called Someone-Else's-Problem and has a DV of (F / 2) + 3.

[Screamin Demon]

Just to make sure I am straight on this:
There is no existing way to conceal yourself from an astral perceiver.
Except possibly infiltrate?

[Mordinvan]

Just to make sure I am straight on this:
There is no existing way to conceal yourself from an astral perceiver.
Except possibly infiltrate?

that and masking yourself to blend into the crowd to look like someone who belongs there.... yea, that about how I understand it.

[Aaron]

Anybody taken a look at the Invisibility spell lately?

[Mordinvan]

Anybody taken a look at the Invisibility spell lately?

Yes, hides you from the EM spectrum, last I checked astral sight didn't use any wavelength I'm aware of, so its likely not going to be of much use.

[Aaron]

I was more looking at the part where it affects the minds of the onlookers. Your mileage may vary with your GM.

[Mordinvan]

I was more looking at the part where it affects the minds of the onlookers. Your mileage may vary with your GM.

don't remember seeing that part. Although it would make sense a mana invisibility spell would affect living minds looking at your no matter what method they were useing to look.

[Crusher Bob]

Amusingly enough, the Metal Gear cardboard box may help you when trying to avoid people on the astral seeing you. Since astral perception can't see through the cardboard box you are hiding under, you are much less noticable.

So when Snake gets the call that the patrol elemental is coming his way, he hides under his cardboard box, and hopes the elemental is not bright enough to wonder why a cardboard box is just sitting there...

[nezumi]

Yes Nezumi, hence the astral visibility modifier table. (SM pg. 114)

There's your problem, your edition is broken.

Mordinvan is saying if a mage has LoS then he can see the hiding individual, this makes sense to my logical mind,

That's like saying if I have line of sight on the sniper hiding with camouflage on the roof top I can see him. That said, if your GM plays such that he is always aware of every living creature within LOS in any direction all the time with no real test, well that may be a problem. Realistically, no individual should be able to juggle all of those entities at once. The world is full of life at every level, and full of magical residue from different sources. Your GM needs to recognize that. The mage can't just astrally float above the city and say 'ah, there's Bob!' with pin-point accuracy.