[X] My Assistant

[apollo124]

I just read an email from RPGNow store which was advertising the pdf's of the 4e books for about $25 each, a savings of about $10 each or $30 off for the set. That brings the big 3 core books down to a (somewhat) more reasonable $75 for the set.

[Critias]

Amazon.com has actual hardcopy versions of all three core books, in a boxed set "gift pack," for $65.

[Bull]

Amazon.com has actual hardcopy versions of all three core books, in a boxed set "gift pack," for $65.

I've seen there were a lot of problems with folks getting their orders when they were supposed to, with Amazon bumping a lot of delivery dates up a month or two.

Not sure if this was just a problem with their initial orders (They took more pre-orders than they could fill maybe), or what. And dunno if this has since cleared up now that they've been out for a couple months.

Bull

[Kyoto Kid]

...they no longer have Monks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

That settles my opinion.

[Bull]

...they no longer have Monks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

That settles my opinion.

I never really liked Monks for some reason. They were never a part of the "core game" for me since they weren't in any of the core books until 3rd ed, and the couple players I had that went out and got the sourcebook (or the Dragon Magazine article) that had teh write up for them did so because they wanted to play a munchy, broken class (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But I'd be willing to bet we'll see them in the next PHB. Along with Bards, Barbs, and Druids.

Bull

[Critias]

I've seen there were a lot of problems with folks getting their orders when they were supposed to, with Amazon bumping a lot of delivery dates up a month or two.

Not sure if this was just a problem with their initial orders (They took more pre-orders than they could fill maybe), or what. And dunno if this has since cleared up now that they've been out for a couple months.

Bull

I ordered mine on July 5th, and got the box in the mail on the 9th.

Now, to be fair, they told me I wouldn't get it until the 30th. So technically their delivery date was still wrong. But I'm not complainin'.

[Caine Hazen]

...they no longer have Monks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

That settles my opinion.

Although they have already stated that they will be in next years Player's Handbook.

[Lordmalachdrim]

Next year's PHB/MM/DMG. That's something that bugged the heck out of me. So now they'll have standard splat books (Martial Powers) and Core Splat Books (Yearly release of new PHB/MM/DMG).

No thanks.


I've read the books and I didn't like a lot of what I saw. It looked like it'd be a fun board game, and I know people who'd enjoy it but it's just not for me or my group. So we'll stick with other games (HackMaster, Alternity, Shadowrun, Palladium for example)

[apollo124]

I never really liked Monks for some reason. They were never a part of the "core game" for me since they weren't in any of the core books until 3rd ed, and the couple players I had that went out and got the sourcebook (or the Dragon Magazine article) that had teh write up for them did so because they wanted to play a munchy, broken class (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But I'd be willing to bet we'll see them in the next PHB. Along with Bards, Barbs, and Druids.

Bull

No monks, bards, barbarians, druids, player half-orcs, or gnomes? I'm liking it less and less. What the hell do they have left? (Yeah, I actually do know, from the RPGNow ad/article about it, but damn). A price point like that and they're still talking about needing to buy the "new and improved" core books every year? Don't you guys get no ideas, 'cause that one sucks. Really, drop bear hit squads will be hired if you try to pull that one in SR. I know you wouldn't do that to us, but just sayin'.

By the way, is it just me saying "Oh no, we got ambushed by goblins. No, wait, whew! It's just a tribe of vicious gnomes."

[Adam]

I'm not seeing an issue with the price point. $34.99 for full color books that are 318, 220, and 286 pages? I don't think that's an out of line price for the production quality of the books. I think there might be a perception issue that the books are more expensive simply because people are more likely to buy all three of them at once.

Of course, if you don't like the game or don't ever play it, then no price is going to satisfy you.

[apollo124]

I think you probably hit it on the head there, Adam. The price is comparable with other RPG books, but having to buy the new core rules every year doesn't sound like something I want to get in on again. And it is the additive effect of needing to buy all 3 at once that gets to me. But, like you said, this new D+D doesn't sound like a game I want to play. Good luck to those who do, though. Just give me SR and I'll be fine.

[Fuchs]

In one of my groups, we discussed switching. Starting a new campaign (recommended by WotC) was not on the table - we all want to continue with our campaign. The key points in favor of not switching were:

- Not enough classes available (no sorcerer)
- Not enough enchantment/charm spells or social abilities available for some character concepts


Minor negatives were:

- No conversion manual/guidelines
- Combat is not that important in our campaign, so one of 4E's biggest selling point is not as important
- All PCs are spellcasters, so another big selling point of 4E is not as needed as in other campaigns
- We have no new players who never played D&D, so ease of starting the game has no importance.

All voted against switching. Once 4E has had some more options available, especially out of combat, we may reconsider.

[Malicant]

- No conversion manual/guidelines

How can someone with access to teh internets say this with a straight face? WotC has a even conversions for Monks and stuff like Hexblades...

[deek]

Personally, I have never understood why people switch editions just because there is something new. I mean, if it is honestly better in more respects than not, then sure, go ahead.

I mean, if I were to start a DnD campaign today, I'd open up my second edition PHB, DMG and MM, and start playing. While I love 4th Edition and had some fun with 3.x, to me, DnD is 2nd Edition, with a little bit of 1st Edition sprinkled in (like OA). I didn't have any house-rules in 2nd edition and had a lot of fun.

I don't know, sometimes I just don't know why people that have a ton of fun playing in one edition, are compelled at all, to leave it all behind. Especially when a new edition almost always limits what you have available when compared to the "new" edition.

And really, that doesn't make a new edition bad. Just not worth it to switch when you like what you are playing.

[Adam]

I think you probably hit it on the head there, Adam. The price is comparable with other RPG books, but having to buy the new core rules every year doesn't sound like something I want to get in on again.

The question to me is: how usable is the game without buying the PHB2? A company releasing extra stuff that I don't want or need doesn't make their current games/books less valuable to me.

I'm not entirely sure how the PHB2 is supposed to work [I, ah, haven't had enough free time to do more than skim the 4e books, much less read scuttlebutt about them on the 'net, aside from the threads here] -- do they contain only additional material [IE, are they supplements?] or do they repeat the basic rules but substitute new races and classes in?

[deek]

That's a really good point, Adam. Looking at both 4th edition games I actually like to play, I can make a really good case at playing the games and having a lot of fun without every buying another book. With SR4, flawed, house-ruled or whatever, the game can be played with just the core book. DnD4, you need three, but both systems, mainly just add to the content, not really change it (except for the optional rules).

I really don't see any DnD4 books after the core being REQUIRED to enjoy the game.

[Nightwalker450]

Actually the DMG isn't even overly necessary. Yes theres some traps, poisons, diseases, and skill challenges (discussed enough). But 90% of the book is telling you how to handle running a game, and dealing with players. So with just the MM and PHB, your role-playing veteran should have more than enough to run a good campaign. And everything is simplified down, so its actually really easy to come up with your own classes/races/monsters whatever.

[Moon-Hawk]

Actually the DMG isn't even overly necessary. Yes theres some traps, poisons, diseases, and skill challenges (discussed enough). But 90% of the book is telling you how to handle running a game, and dealing with players. So with just the MM and PHB, your role-playing veteran should have more than enough to run a good campaign. And everything is simplified down, so its actually really easy to come up with your own classes/races/monsters whatever.

Hmmm, I think that's largely true. One question: The combat encounter building only appears in the DMG, correct? The limits on building easy and challenging combat encounters, as well as what levels of monsters can be in them, etc only appear in the DMG and would probably not be obvious, even to an experienced GM. It's only about 1% of the book, but it would be rough to try to put together a campaign without having seen it at least once, I think.

[Nightwalker450]

Hmmm, I think that's largely true. One question: The combat encounter building only appears in the DMG, correct? The limits on building easy and challenging combat encounters, as well as what levels of monsters can be in them, etc only appear in the DMG and would probably not be obvious, even to an experienced GM. It's only about 1% of the book, but it would be rough to try to put together a campaign without having seen it at least once, I think.

Yah they have those tables. But it sums up pretty much in a paragraph.

*Spoiler!*
Level of Encounter * Number of Characters

So if you want a level 2 encounter of 4 characters look up the exp for a level 2 creature (125) and multiply it by the number of characters. You have 500 exp to spend on creating the encounter. Easy is lower then the character level, moderate is no more than 1 level higher, difficult is 2-4 levels higher. There you go, you have the essential part of the DMG.

The diseases, traps, and poisons add flavor and could be useful, but pretty much everything is really simple to throw together. If you're short on cash you can easily skip this book to start with (and maybe even figure out your own pretty easy once you get going).

[Wounded Ronin]

I always felt that monks were essential to the late 70s-early 80s feel of D&D. The monks were there to remind everyone that oriential martial arts are superior to western martial arts, because Tallhoffer wasn't well known or popular at that time, and at the same time all the 70s creative types likely to get into fantasy RPGs were also probably getting high and trying to find the truth of their souls through krotty. One of the most poignant moments for me was reading a first edition rule book where Gygax said that "monks are not super men" when in fact looking at the statistics that's actually pretty much what they were. That implied that the super-powerful monks were considered "realistic" at that time.

As such, I always felt that the appropriate thing to do when not playing an oriental-setting D&D game was not to play as a monk, while still keeping the monks on the rulebook. That way in the abstract you could be a western elf or whatever, but at the same time you'd understand in the abstract that if you were asian you'd automatically be better, in keeping with the times. The monks weren't there to play. They were there for statistical purposes and to lay the parameters of period-appropriate orientalism.

Therefore, D&D 4th edition should have a monk class which you're not actually allowed to play, and which has ridiculously high stats all across the board. There should be a sample monk who is the highest statted entity in the whole D&D 4th ed system, and his name should be David Carradine.

[Caine Hazen]

Therefore, D&D 4th edition should have a monk class which you're not actually allowed to play, and which has ridiculously high stats all across the board. There should be a sample monk who is the highest statted entity in the whole D&D 4th ed system, and his name should be David Carradine.

This is where we make the thread descend into chaos as I stand over in my corner here and scream BRUCE LEE!!!! And then the rest of the M.A. nerd an' wanna-bes float out and rumble and it looks like that scene in Anchorman

Although Mr. Carradine is pretty cool, got to share a whiskey with him a few years ago at GenCon, nice dude.

[Cthulhudreams]

So, thanks to customer service, if a cleric wacks up a blade barrier and a wizard knocks a monster back through 5 squares of it, the monster takes damage 5 times.

Even if you didn't take damage 5 times, we have the new gold standard of 4th ed combat. Someone wacks up some sort of barrier effect, and the party tekken juggles the dude through it repeatedly getting huge damage. If you use something like wall of fire which doesn't exempt you for multiple damage on multiple entry, and use D&D's awesome non ecludian geometry, you can knock someone backwards in a zig zag fashion and push them through the fire multiple times.

Awesome! Actually a kinda fun tactic too, if a bit 'gamist'

[Reg06]

Wait! Hold the presses! If you push somebody through a shitload of blades multiple times that person gets hurt more than if it had just been the one pass through a wall of pain? Well screw that, 4e is obviously broken.

[Moon-Hawk]

Wait! Hold the presses! If you push somebody through a shitload of blades multiple times that person gets hurt more than if it had just been the one pass through a wall of pain? Well screw that, 4e is obviously broken.

Whaaaat? That's just crazy talk. I'm gonna try it and see. Anybody know where I can get a huge wall of spinning blades? Preferably on the cheap. Oooh, and a box of band-aids. Just in case!

[Malicant]

Wait! Hold the presses! If you push somebody through a shitload of blades multiple times that person gets hurt more than if it had just been the one pass through a wall of pain? Well screw that, 4e is obviously broken.

What? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)