[X] My Assistant

[FrankTrollman]

My question is, does the Spelunker build still work?

Dude, skill based anything in 4e Does Not Work At All.

-Frank

[bishop186]

If you think that D&D always had bad fluff, then you never played any of the good second edition campaign settings (Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and, my personal favorite, Planescape)

Okay, I agree. I LOVED the Dark Sun setting. It was awesome. The Dark Sun setting was also not in the core books, now was it? Oh, and wasn't it dropped after 2nd edition (unless you count the mock-ups that people did for 3rd)? Great job there, TSR/Wizards. Perhaps I went a tad bit overzealous with my generalization but on the whole D&D always has had bad fluff. Things like Dark Sun were always the exception rather than rule.

Skills, man, I really miss them. I am one of the people that will miss professions and crafts, but I'm not going to miss use rope, that's for damn sure. Nobody ever got used rope unless they were a swashbuckling pirate or something, anyway, and seriously, did it make sense that you could be Profession(Sailor) and not have any skill points in Use Rope, anyway? Honestly, the faster-lighter ruleset for everything else aside from combat (especially social situations) is quite frustrating. I'm definitely on board there, I mean my favorite core character was the bard for Pelor's sake! I really hope they roll out some expanded ruleset books but if they don't and I want to DM a game with social interactions, I'll bite the bullet and come up the the DCs myself. After all, it does give a handy table on what's good for what level. If I want my socialites to be higher level than the PCs, I'll probably just adjust their DC up for higher level encounters (which the characters probably won't make but nuts to them, he's higher level dammit!). It is quite sad to see craft go, though.

Craft Magic/Wondrous Item is still there, it's just a ritual now. So all you wondrous item crafters, go a-ritual hunting!


Speaking of rituals, they aren't quite one-shot. They're like spells in every way except their reagents cost something and they take a little time to prepare. I am a bit dismayed with the selection of Rituals in the core three (I want a demon-summoning ritual, dammit, and I want it before level 20!) but I'll either wait for the inevitable magic book to come out (which better have charm spells or I'm going to fall down, cry, and piss myself!) or just make them as needed. I think I might also houserule rituals so that several people of lower level can cast a higher level ritual (whether or not it will be as well casted as one person of the proper level is yet to be determined).

[raphabonelli]

Okay, I agree. I LOVED the Dark Sun setting. It was awesome.

Darksun was an amazing setting (i GM'ed it for almost 5 years)... fluffy wise. As any good (A)D&D seting, the rules don't do justice to the setting (the same happens with another great setting: Iron Kingdoms). It's boring try to create a mood of urgency, despair and mortality when the players are almost gods with quase-infinity hitpoints, and need dozens of hits to die. The mood got much better after my group adapted the setting to the Roll&Keep system of Legends of the Five Rings.

This happens a lot with D&D (and i guess that will be even worse with the 4th edition). You read the fluff and novels, and discover that you can't get the same mood and feeling with the ruleset.

[Fortune]

To each his own. I hated Dark Sun!

[spica2501]

Wow, I didn't know about that dragon thing in the new version of the realms. I guess I really was right when I told all my friends that Wizards is turning the realms into Eberron without the trains.

As for people complaining about high level NPCs being used for Deus Ex Machina; if your DM ever did that, that just means you had a bad DM. The high level NPCs of the realms have better things to do than help out PCs with their quests. Elminster is a crotchety 5000+ year old man, he would just tell the PCs to solve their own problems if they asked him for help, or at most tell them some story of partial relevance to the current situation.

And is wizards payed any attention to the fluff they would know that without someone taking the place of Mistra, there is no arcane magic in the realms at all (except for shadow weave magic). If they have Mistra perminantly dead then there is no magic in the realms and without magic there is no reason for the realms to even exist as a campaign setting (Just like planescape has no reason to exist as a setting without the factions, and therefore after the faction war, the setting was more or less retired).

[Kyoto Kid]

...of all the settings I liked Forgotten Realms the best. Lots of good fluff, lots of campaign opportunities.

One of my best D&D characters next to Father Tel, came form the realms (Silverymoon) - a Fighter/Monk turned Paladin of Lathander (after discovering a relic holy sword of her patron in Myth Drannor) named Brennah.

...and ya sure ya betcha, does she have a history behind her.

[Particle_Beam]

Meh, your average hack'neyed fantasy setting where everything got thrown into a huge hodgepot of ridicoulus gestalt-mixing. The one thing that defines the Forgotten Realms is the change to the pantheon when a new rule-edition appears, and the consequent death of that magic-gal, Mystra. How many times did she die? 3 times? 4 times? A hundred times? She'll probably be reborn and die again, when 5th edition comes up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Last times, all assassins died, before they got retconned into existence back again. Now, some thousand magicians go the way of Mystra, the Ever-Dying. I bet that in 5th edition, all rogues will spontaneously combust, and in the 6 edition, all clerics explode due to Terminators killing the newest incarnation of Mystra.

[Fuchs]

I'd not call the Realms a "hodgepot of ridicoulus gestalt-mixing". If we take a look at our own world ca. 1400, then we'd see the same "hodgepot" of cultures spanning the globe - and many of the realms have a historical role model they seem to be shaped after (Dalelands=swiss cantons, for example). I mean the earlier realms, not the mess left after countless trashy novels were written, and almost every one featuring, for lack of any even semi-intelligent plot, a RSE (Realm shaking event) so the readers would have to buy it to stay current on canon. The 3E FR ended up a mess due to that, even though the FRCS had good parts - notably, not the ones taken after novels. At least it convinced me to stop bothering about the novels.

What is wrecking the realms are the novels - even good authors like Cunningham who isn't into RSEs repeatedly fail when they try to write a D&D novel because they simply don't get the realms as a RPG setting. (Cunningham obviously either played with a house rule of "we don't have raise dead", or never played at all, but contrary to other authors, she didn't even spare a "and the raise dead attempt failed" line, or something similar to explain why some of the most powerful, or best connected people would not have a loved one raised or resurrected.)

If one cuts out all the shit from the novels, the realms are a decent setting, 2E or 3E (if one can stand the more high magic stuff like shade). Good plot hooks adventuring possibilities of all kinds, from social intrigue to dungeoneering. Unfortunately, every FRCS will end up wrecked by the trash sold as novels in short order (I don't see what use a campaign setting book has if 6 months afterwards, canon is rewritten according to the latest author's whim who just had to have a civil war for his star wars prequel rip off).

Personally, after cutting back the modern stuff that seeped in (culture/attitudes as well as technology and "magic used as tech"), and adding some travel time by dropping teleport, the realms make a fine setting for my campaigns, especially since they offer so many different regions, cultures and possibilities, and not just one gimmick.

[Hatspur]

I just hope that the majority of the old d20 books take a massive dive in price within a year of 4e's release.

[Wounded Ronin]

Duurh, what happens when you use Raise Dead on someone who died of age?

[Aaron]

I'm guessing that "you can’t restore life to ... a creature that died of old age." (Heinsoo et al.)

[Particle_Beam]

Normally, you can't raise somebody from the dead when they died of old age...

But there is a rumor that using the crimson feather of a phoenix might overcome that obstacle and grant 1 year of life for the ressurected.... That's written in the Monster Manual as part of the background lore.

Happy Phoenix hunting...

[Wounded Ronin]

LOL, watch pheonixes become endangered speices.

[FrankTrollman]

Meh. Hardly any of the "Nature" rituals are in the basic book because the "Primal" power source is waiting for the PHB2. You'll be able to reset ages with Reincarnation just like you've always been able to do. Bringing back the dead when they died of old age is a problem only for Clerics.

-Frank

[Particle_Beam]

Perhaps. And perhaps the theoretical Reincarnation Ritual only lets you be reborn as a stag beetle. If the Nature check is better, you might chose between a snake, a dog, or at best, deer... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
And phoenix feathers might once again overcome the restrictions and make you reborn as your younger self... for one year, before you die again or get turned into a stag beetle.

Phoenix hunters will be rich... if they manage to hunt these beasts down in the Elemental Chaos, that is...

[GrepZen]

The "Council of Wyrms" (CW) setting was introduced in 94 and was its own separate thing from FR. It didn't really go anywhere as it suffered from the same RP limiting factors as "Oriental Adventures". I can see them folding in CW to FR as there was always an over abundance of dragons in the FR setting and it plays in nicely with the Half-dragon / red dragon disciple munchkin evolution. I have to give it to them though, dragon-kin a a PC race has been a popular idea since Dragon Lance intorduced the Draconians and seems to have progressed rules wise through the settings until this point. WoTC is nothing if not customer oriented.

What was wrong with Spelljammer? It even got its own comic book series (as did FR) which was cut off way to early (the art did start to suffer thought).

As to the thread topic...4th ED is a another natural progression for the company as they have been looking & testing for a way to combine their CCG & RPG lines, in some respects, for a while. Mark my words, we will be seeing "Battle Cards", "Mini-Rules", and "Dragon Dice" "Optional" rule sets to improve / quicken the gaming experience.

[paws2sky]

What was wrong with Spelljammer? It even got its own comic book series (as did FR) which was cut off way to early (the art did start to suffer thought).

Spelljammer rocked. I'm still kicking myself for selling off that part of my collection years ago when I was out of work... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

It didn't really go anywhere as it suffered from the same RP limiting factors as "Oriental Adventures".

Oriental Adventures was the ultimate expression of RPGs, though. There's not much you can do to expand upon the most sophisticated concepts of role playing as a whole once you've played a sohei who stabs people with chopsticks for 1d3 damage and who has karate chops that do 1d6 damage per hit. Except maybe role play a ninja.

Oriental Adventures was all we really needed, after all...

[hyzmarca]

Spelljammer rocked. I'm still kicking myself for selling off that part of my collection years ago when I was out of work... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Very few people got Spelljammer, which was all about John Carter of Mars style planetary romance and low-tech mystical pseudo-science fiction space opera. It gave sword-and-sorcery purists cerebral aneurysms. It didn't help much that it was released during the time when TSR was overextending itself.

[GrepZen]

Oriental Adventures was all we really needed, after all...

OA was fantastic for what it was and the book was written so well that you couldn't help but learn a little slice of history. I just didn't like the restrictions placed on characters by the honor code (which in retrospect was a vital part of the "society" back then). It always seemed like it forced everyone in the party to have a hidden agenda which would be sprung at the most in-opportune moment. That and everyone wanted to play Ninjas which got old after a while.
Bringing this back to topic, I with Frank in that all the "new" stuff seems to reduce the game to munchkin paradise. 3rd ED wasn't much better but, it could be tuned to make things fit without the basis being "kill the monster". I may have to read a bit more about 4th ED but, I'm not liking the changes so far. If D&D is going to follow the Intel model of release (which should have been evident towards the end of 2nd ED) I'm not taking the bait.

[Particle_Beam]

"Kill the monster" has always been the basis to balance the game in D&D, since 1st edition. It's just the idea how that balancing should be that differentiates the different D&D-editions. In older editions, making wizards, paladins and rangers advancing much much slower was thought to be a good idea (it pissed off the player's who wanted to play such classes). In 3rd edition, it was thought to make everyone level up the same way and give out feats at specific levels. It brought us the uber-wizard, who was only bested by the terrible Cleric-or-Druid-Zilla, especially then when the player refused to be a walking band-aid, fighters who got mocked by everyone at level 12, and turkey feats like dodge, toughness and skill focus, which were even meant as traps for n00bs (no joke). And let's be honest. Roleplaying restrictions and abilities are not a way to balance combat-capabilities. People are respectful to the Arch-Wizard, not the Arch-Bard, or the Arch-Fighter... The only guys on par are the High Priest and the Arch-Druid.
Go away from the mentality that combat prowes determines AND reduces your entire social abilities. It's not a zero-sum thing. Combat roles are not your social roles, and never should have been in the first place.

[FrankTrollman]

The problem for me isn't that they took the first 8 levels of D&D and spread them out over 30 levels. The fact that high end characters really aren't that powerful is just a stylistic thing. A 21st level Fighter is about on par with like 10-15 first level Wizards. Whatever. My problem is that the new math that they were so proud of and ranting at me about for the last nine months is really atrociously bad.

A 1st level Wizard can do a small but perceptible amount of damage to any target without rolling dice. This means that a moderate handful of them can grind down a Fighter of virtually any level because Fighters take a very long time to hack through groups of enemies. It also means that they can clear out "minions" of literally any level because even epic level minions go down to even one point of automatic damage. On the flip side, a Fighter has to roll attack rolls, and d20 rolls scale off the RNG with surprising speed when characters are of disparate levels. If you have a sword you can't hurt an enemy who happens to be 10 levels higher than you. So while a Fighter to Wizard comparison converts 20 character levels to a dozen opponents, an Apples to Apples comparison of Fighters shows a discrepancy of 10 levels being equivalent to virtually unlimited enemies.

The 4e Skill Challenge rules are that you fail. Badly and horrendously at standard challenges of minimum complexity. You are seriously supposed to succeed at skill tests that you are good at 50% of the time or less at all levels, and you fail a simple challenge if you can't succeed 4 times out of 5. Characters have a less than 20% chance of successfully completing a Complexity 1 challenge at all levels. I don't understand how that one ever got through playtesting. Didn't playtesters call attention to the fact that they didn't ever succeed when faced with the new Skill Challenges rules?

Combats become longer as characters rise in level. By a lot. But a high level Wizard can still use his Orb Mastery to straight up permalock enemies in one shot - once per encounter. It's just everyone else who has to sit there and slog through doing 20 points of damage a round to an enemy with 500 hit points.

-Frank

[Particle_Beam]

Oh man, FrankTrollmann, if you're still adamant on using your simulationist whims on a game that clearly admits to not care for that and rather emphasizes playability and fun, you will always fail with any attempts of simulating some weird-ass situation where a bajillion wizards of level 1 will try to fry a level bajillion fighter, when the game tells to not try such assinine theories. Next, you're going to complain once more about minions and how they interact with the game world and so fort. And yes, even a Fighter gets abilities to deal automatic damage, like his stance "Rain of Steel", which makes every minion die instantly if it begins it turns adjacent to him. And you're again spouting that nonsense about high-level fights going so long because everybody else deals so much damage.

My respect for you has diminished so much, I'm simply going to put you on ignore forever, because it grates my nerves, and I frankly don't need to waste anymore time reading the same disputed arguments ever and ever.

Oh well, that's what that button is good for. Better to ignore somebody than to start insulting him because you got tired out and start to think badly about the person on the other side of the discussion. Every message board should have an ignore feature.

[Wounded Ronin]

Oh man, FrankTrollmann, if you're still adamant on using your simulationist whims on a game that clearly admits to not care for that and rather emphasizes playability and fun, you will always fail with any attempts of simulating some weird-ass situation where a bajillion wizards of level 1 will try to fry a level bajillion fighter, when the game tells to not try such assinine theories. Next, you're going to complain once more about minions and how they interact with the game world and so fort. And yes, even a Fighter gets abilities to deal automatic damage, like his stance "Rain of Steel", which makes every minion die instantly if it begins it turns adjacent to him. And you're again spouting that nonsense about high-level fights going so long because everybody else deals so much damage.

My respect for you has diminished so much, I'm simply going to put you on ignore forever, because it grates my nerves, and I frankly don't need to waste anymore time reading the same disputed arguments ever and ever.

Oh well, that's what that button is good for. Better to ignore somebody than to start insulting him because you got tired out and start to think badly about the person on the other side of the discussion. Every message board should have an ignore feature.

This from the man who suggested that perhaps *I* have got a psychological complex relating to D&D.

[Particle_Beam]

Yes, perhaps, if you feel threatened to it. However, I don't feel the need to post a superlong rant from another site... Like that one, for example...

Oh well, if we're going down to that level, it's proof enough that there isn't anything more to say...