IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Rigging my own body, if it wasn't for that damn Avail:25!
Hasimir
post Jun 6 2008, 03:32 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



Browsing through Augmentation I started to wonder: would it be possible to rig my own body?
I could get funky rigger bonuses for controlling my "drone-body" in hot-sim.
I could go hacking/rigging remotely while a Pilot/Agent moves me around as needed.

The rules for 'Borgs describe them as essentially a rigged humanoid drone.
But that's too problematic.

A full-cybered body is damn expansive.
Counting the need of 2 arms, 2 legs and 1 torso to be able to rig-drive my body...
...at standard-grade I'll have money to buy the rigger stuff, but not enough Essence left.
...at Alpha-grade I'll have the Essence, but not the money.

So I was thinking: why not going Bio-Drone?
It only costs 25k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 0.5 Essence for a nice CAST to be implanted into my body!
Too bad for the availability of 25 that prevents me from doing it at Char-Gen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

I suppose I'll have to stick to the old turbo-wheelchair (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Anyway...is any of my ideas viable?
Or maybe I overlooked some fundamental detail that won't let them work even if, in actual play, I get money and opportunity?
Or is there some other way to work around (with vanilla canon rules) this limits?
Maybe some different oprion or way to rig?

...

I also have a question about Agents and Pilots.
Are they interchangable?
A Pilot is really a specialized agent that controls a kind of device.
An Agent is a "piloted" software that can perform 'trix actions.
So, can a Pilot be instructed to do 'trix stuff?
Can an Agent be instructed to "jump in" into a device?

And if not in this way...can an Agent command-control a Pilot's device, just like any hacker could do?


...

[EDIT]
A friend pointed out some calculation errors ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) and it turns out that a full-cyber body (no skull) is possible at Alphaware, burning 180k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 4.8 Essence.
I counted in:
- 2 arms
- 2 legs
- 1 torso
- 1 Control Rig

I suppose there's no need to apply a vehicle Rigger Adaptation to the 'wared body, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
paws2sky
post Jun 6 2008, 04:28 PM
Post #2


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,162
Joined: 16-November 07
Member No.: 14,229



I'm highly amused, just for the record.

-paws
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Slymoon
post Jun 6 2008, 05:12 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 201
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 862



As am I.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jun 6 2008, 05:24 PM
Post #4


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,516
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



it is, more or less, a valid question . . if we can rig the cyber-samurai, or the rigger can scrape his brains out and make himself into a full cyber body drone . . why should we not be able to rig our allmost completely bio-samurai too?
of course, there's going to be Problems because the tech was meant for animals at first . .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hasimir
post Jun 6 2008, 07:03 PM
Post #5


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



So, I'm going for an Alphaware full-cyber body (arms, legs, torso, no skull).
I installed the Command Rig.

Should I install a Rigger Adaptation Mod?
How do I work out the Slots/Capacity?
Do I have 4 slots (or Body slots, wichever is higher) and also my normal amount of cyberware Capacity?
Can I use vehicle armor???
Drones far smaller than a human-sized body can use it...and anthropo drones use it...CAN/SHOULD I use it too?

Anyway I'm mounting cybereyes because I think that I need them in order to have a visual feed that can go into the rigging device.
And that lead me to a question: what would my Sensor rating be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Because even for Borgs it says to use INT or Sensor, wichever is lower...so how much is my Sensor Rating?

And by the way...what is the Handling of a antropomorph drone?

Do I use Gunnery to shoot and/or brawl/melee? or di I use a normal weapon-skill?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PlatonicPimp
post Jun 6 2008, 07:57 PM
Post #6


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,219
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lofwyr's stomach.
Member No.: 1,320



With just augmentation, I too thought this was do-able. However, arsenal was kind enough to inform us that in order for a cyborg to be placed into something, it has to have the cyborg adaption modification. This is a vehicle option and is not available for biodrones.

So you could rigg your body, but you can't keep your brainjar in it. This sucks, because I totally wanted to put a cyborg in a Cyber-bear.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
weblife
post Jun 6 2008, 08:09 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 437
Joined: 11-April 05
Member No.: 7,318



But you should, in theory, be able to rig your own body.

It would be like hacking into someone elses body, if they had the bio-drone interface thingy.

Basically you turn on ASIST override to make sure you do not twitch from your brain signals, then you boot up your bio-drone systems and take control of yourself like a puppet.

No cyber-brain or massive limb exchange needed.

Just take the rules for riggning someone else and apply them, as its the exact same situation. In this case, you happen to have your brain inside the bio-drone, but the principles are identical.

Might give you a quite disassociative relationship with your body which can't be healthy to explore in the long run, but its doesn't look impossible by a long shot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Remember though, you will need a Pilot program specifically written to pilot bi-ped biodrones to use captains-chair instead of being "driving" directly. You cannot simply slot any old Agent.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jun 6 2008, 08:20 PM
Post #8


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,083
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



by the way, you can't technically make human biodrones.

also, you technically don't rig your own body no matter how many cyberlimbs you have.

rigging your own body is not actually possible as such. you can get a fairly similar effect with a full cyberlimb body, but it's not quite the same.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jun 6 2008, 08:26 PM
Post #9


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,516
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



same difference as with player character ghouls and npc/critter ghouls more or less . . it just sucks to be you somehow *g*
now imagine someone else rigging you . . and having you run into a wall again and again just for shits and giggles ^^
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Slymoon
post Jun 6 2008, 08:47 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 201
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 862



Possible maybe, but it really seems bizarre.

Since your brain is already 'rigging' your body, it is almost a step backward to remove your natural rigging nervous system.

Though I suppose you could brainbox and install yourself in a 1982 TransAm (equipped with cylon style frontal sensor) and rig your human body, course to be the tops that needs to have a curly mullet.

That actually could be alot of fun... except for the jammers. Blasted jammers.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
weblife
post Jun 6 2008, 09:10 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 437
Joined: 11-April 05
Member No.: 7,318



Skillwires.

If a body has skillwires, you can control all physical parts of the body. Typically the signal comes from a chip, goes through the brain and out into the nerve systems.

If however, the signal can be fed in at the top of the spinal cord, and you could write a Pilot human program, then you could rig someone just fine. Even if you were actually the brain inside the head of the body.

Look to bunrako parlors for the programming technology needed. They are able to slip their "workers" a chip that makes them react to given stimuli within the reaction patterns programmed into the personachip.

Mkay, so now we have a situation where, instead of a chip with a static persona and goals, you have a hacker who feeds new goals and actions to the body on the fly. Ie. a rigger.

Some unholy hybrid of skillwires and control software and you'd be set.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
weblife
post Jun 6 2008, 09:10 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 437
Joined: 11-April 05
Member No.: 7,318



In SR 3 there were rules that allowed this wasn't there?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jun 6 2008, 09:38 PM
Post #13


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,083
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



QUOTE (weblife @ Jun 6 2008, 05:10 PM) *
Skillwires.

If a body has skillwires, you can control all physical parts of the body. Typically the signal comes from a chip, goes through the brain and out into the nerve systems.

If however, the signal can be fed in at the top of the spinal cord, and you could write a Pilot human program, then you could rig someone just fine. Even if you were actually the brain inside the head of the body.

Look to bunrako parlors for the programming technology needed. They are able to slip their "workers" a chip that makes them react to given stimuli within the reaction patterns programmed into the personachip.

Mkay, so now we have a situation where, instead of a chip with a static persona and goals, you have a hacker who feeds new goals and actions to the body on the fly. Ie. a rigger.

Some unholy hybrid of skillwires and control software and you'd be set.

no. you can't. you need a stirrup interface to rig a body, which is apparently based on move-by-wire. for some freakish reason, notwithstanding it's experimental (and not available for humans... yet, at least) it's a lot cheaper than move-by-wire is. regardless, that is the technology that you need to rig someone. not skillwires. skillwires give you a skill. they do not take over your body. if you hacked someone's skillwires, about the worst thing you could do is deny them the skills granted by said skillwire. you cannot take over their body, you especially cannot rig them (you would at the minimum require some way to get a simsense feed out of the person).

now of course, if you really want riggable humans in your game, you would be entirely within your rights to include a stirrup interface for humans. it would probably be rather brokenly powerful, but you could certainly do so if you wanted.

(incidentally, the stirrup interface is only availability 15 if you're willing to settle for rating 1...)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jun 6 2008, 09:43 PM
Post #14


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,516
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



QUOTE (weblife @ Jun 6 2008, 11:10 PM) *
In SR 3 there were rules that allowed this wasn't there?

no, not that i know of . . and even if rigging ain't my forte, cyber/bio more or less is my shtick o.O
closest was the snake-eye-system that let you experience sensory feed from the senses of propperly equipped characters . .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hasimir
post Jun 6 2008, 10:04 PM
Post #15


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



Skillwires!
That's genius!

I was writing a rather LOOOONG post explaining all my convoluted reasoning to make this "Living Drone" technology work...but there were many problems.
I'll quote the main one:
QUOTE
Jarhead transplant costs 250.000:nuyen: alone...meaning that at char-gen I can become a brain in a jar like those on Futurama...and that's it.
So it is not doable.

Bio-Drone rigging is affordable, but has a steep Availability of 25...meaning I can't have it at char-gen.
(Too bad, it was the easier way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) )

I'm left with good old Cyberware, that IS expansive, but I originally miscalculated it as being even more expansive than it actually is.
So, now I'm trying THIS road.

I'm a human.
I get Alphaware cyber -legs -arms and -torso; the cyberskull has availability 16 so I can't have it.
Anyway now I have a completely mechanical body, or at least enough of it that I assume I can manouver it as a de-facto anthropomorph drone.
(jumping-in to just an arm while the rest of the body collapses doesn't seem very bright or usefull)

QUESTION: how do I equip it? as a cyber-body, or as a Drone?
Arsenal uses a Slot system, while BBB and Augmentation use the normal Capacity system ... how do they blend?

I'm inclined to assume that they overlap.

In Arsenal you can mount a robotic full arm on a drone/vehicle and the book says that you can fit it with cyberware.
On the other hand, drone/vehicle equipment comes in so many sizes that can be mounted on even insect-sized devices, and cat-sized divices, and human sized (and shaped!) devices...so it SHOULD also be mountable on a cybernetic body.

So...following this ideas...

Should I use drone/vehicle slots to mount a Rigger Adaptation Mod in the cyber body?
I assume all drones have one already fitted.
But does my own cyber-body needs one?
I would say "YES".
That's because a normal cyber-body (even just one cyber-limb) is built to receive command signals directly from the user's brain.
I am trying to "disconnect" the brain-to-nervous system chain of communication, overriding it with a VR environment simulation that will give me an edge...all my commands will go through the Command Rig, and all body inputs likewise will get to me through the same Rig ... to make the machine-body talk to the Rig I assume I will have to Adapt it.
Just like a car...using a rig middle interface instead of the "direct" wheel steering.


Skillwires make it all so easy!
Skillwires are basically the human/cyberware version of a drone/vehicular Rigger Adaptation!
This cancels the problem of useing Slots or Capacity alltogether (and the multitude of problems derived from Slot equipment compared to Capacity equipment).

Where can I find more info on these "bunrako parlors" and their employees?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jun 6 2008, 10:24 PM
Post #16


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,516
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



Shadows of Asia probably O.o
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Leofski
post Jun 6 2008, 10:27 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 132
Joined: 9-February 08
Member No.: 15,667



It may just be my memory fading away, but didn't some woman get rigged outside the ACHE in Emergence. Not got my copy to hand.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hasimir
post Jun 6 2008, 10:37 PM
Post #18


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



The forum is impossible to use...my previous post was made long before Jaid posted -_-
I have to say that what Jaid says makes a lot of sense, but then what about those people in the "bunrako parlors"?
Maybe they were not controlled by the persona-chip, but only personality-sculpted...like...I am me, and I control my body, but the chip influences my personality?

Anyway in the worst case scenario I think I'll stick to the full-cyber body, with a Rigger Adaptation based on the one in the Stirrup Interface...no Move-by-Wire bonuses, just a plain old Rigg Adaptation for an anthropomorph drone.
Judging from the numbers it should come at about 5.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 0.5 Essence.

But please, keep critics and suggestions coming! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hasimir
post Jun 7 2008, 01:02 AM
Post #19


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



For Sensor rating I'm gonna apply this "soon to be errata" rule:
QUOTE
First, make all sensors have a rating. The cost, if they don't have a rating as currently written, will be Rating x base cost. So for instance a rating 1 camera would be 50, and a rating 6 would be 300. Each upgrade (like lowlight, vision enhancement, etc) costs 1 capacity. I think ratings should stay capped at 6, because riggers will become retardedly accurate otherwise -- If you have 6(8 ) gunnery + 2 smartlink + 6 sensors + 6 for active targetting, that's 20 dice. If you let ratings go up to, say, 12, riggers won't be physically able to miss using active targetting.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jun 7 2008, 02:19 AM
Post #20


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,083
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



QUOTE (Hasimir @ Jun 6 2008, 05:37 PM) *
The forum is impossible to use...my previous post was made long before Jaid posted -_-
I have to say that what Jaid says makes a lot of sense, but then what about those people in the "bunrako parlors"?
Maybe they were not controlled by the persona-chip, but only personality-sculpted...like...I am me, and I control my body, but the chip influences my personality?

basically, yes. that and the fact that the bunraku dolls are controlled with addiction, threats of horrible things happening to them should they attempt to fight back, a lack of any other way to survive, etc.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hasimir
post Jun 7 2008, 11:06 AM
Post #21


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 6 2008, 09:19 PM) *
basically, yes. that and the fact that the bunraku dolls are controlled with addiction, threats of horrible things happening to them should they attempt to fight back, a lack of any other way to survive, etc.

mmm...nice...Thats a way of life I can look forward when I retire from the 'runs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hasimir
post Jun 7 2008, 03:36 PM
Post #22


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



Since turning a body into a riggable device seems to have some inherent difficulties ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) I'm trying to work a different angle.

So, let's say I pick up an Evo Orderly.
It's basically a comfortable drone-chair with 4 walker legs and 2 full arms (and a Medikit 6 Unit).

Now...if I apply to it a Rigger Cocoon I basycally have a 4 legged power-armor that I can manouver through rigging.
The Cocoon itself is a Barrier with Armor 20 and Structure 10, and the drone-frame can get up to 9 points of vehicular Armor...quite enough for "walker" usage.

Now...the book says that the arms can be considered as normal cyberarms and be fitted with appropriate cyberware.
Can the same happen to the legs?

If I manouver the arms of a drone to use a gun, do I roll Gunnery or Pistol?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hasimir
post Jun 7 2008, 07:46 PM
Post #23


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



Let's see if I did my homework right.
All modification effects are already calculated in the Drone profile; what didn't fit there was noted beside the specific modification.


Walker Exoskeleton MK-I = 47100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
> Handling +1
> Acceleration 5/20 (10/40 hoovering)
> Speed 40
> Pilot 3
> Body 3
> Armor 3
> Sensors 4(6)

Basic Frame:
- Evo Orderly = 2000 Y

Standard Free Upgrades:
- Medikit 6
- 2 cyberarms (B/A/S = 3)
- 4 cyberlegs (B/A/S = 3)

Slot Upgrades: 4 Slots + 1 Overmodification
- Armor +6 = 1200 Y
- Touch Sensor (+1 Perception/Sensor test, -2 Biofeedback) = 1500 Y
- Nanomaintenence 2 = 10000 Y
- Rigger Cocoon (Barrier 20, Structure 10) = 1500 Y
- overmod Fuzzy Logic (+2 on Pilot Complex Actions) = 5000 Y

Cyber -Arm -Leg Upgrades:
- 2 cyberhand Snake Fingers = 2000 Y
- 4 cyberleg Modular Adaptation = 2000 Y
- 4 Skimmer Discs = 10000 Y

Sensor Package: 8 Capacity
- Ultrawide Radar 4 = 2000 Y
- Camera + Thermic Vision + Flare Compensation 6 = 750 Y

Other Upgrades:
- Electronical Hardening 6 = 150 Y

Onboard Software:
- Autosoft 3 (Clearsight / Defense / EW / Manouver / Targeting / Medical) = 9000 Y

...

Now.
If the droid picks up a gun and shoots, he will roll Pilot+Targeting, right?
If I'm jumped in and make the droid pick up a gun and shoot...do I roll Sensor+Gunnery? or Sensor+Pistol?
And if it tryes to brawl or pick up a blade? what is rolled? can I compile a "Melee Autosoft" ?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jun 7 2008, 08:05 PM
Post #24


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,516
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



you know . . you have indeed built an anime-like mecha with the hovering o.O
i am impressed ^^
it's probably the closest to a tachikoma too *grins*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hasimir
post Jun 7 2008, 11:35 PM
Post #25


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 8,522



Stupid question, but... If I have a Control Rig, do I still need a dataport? o_O
Same question, but with a Cyber-Commlink?

Can a Satellite Link be fitted INTO a Cyber-Commlink?
Or do I need to jack it from outside?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 1st December 2020 - 06:07 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.