Distance Strike - Question, Can it be used with subduing combat? Options

[Ramorta]

Is it possable to use Subduing combat (p152 BBB) with the Distance Strike adept power from street magic (p176)?
Is there anything printed RAW for or against this?

Thanks in advance.

[Earlydawn]

Distance Strike specifically refers to a melee strike, specifically a "normal melee attack". It also explains that it's defended as though it was a ranged attack. I personally wouldn't allow it, as the intent seems to be to quite literally throw a punch across the room to hit your victim. YMMV.

[Ramorta]

While I realize the intent was to throw melee strikes, is there anything according RAW that prevents it.
Also, it specificly states that its resisted as if it were ranged, however its still considered melee. How would you rule that? Is it a ranged attack or melee? Under subduing (p152 BBB) It states

To subdue a character, resolve melee combat normally.

Would this not include the "normal melee attack" that distance strike permits?


I understand the origional intent was to only throw ranged unarmed attacks, but does this unbalanace the game if they can grapple at range? Any supporting facts for either side would be appreciated.

[Zak]

Would have to check my books if this is open to abuse.

But I would not mind a player using it. I mean, you could just stunbolt or shoot him.

If you want to do it the expensive(BP wise) and complicated way, be my guest.

[hyzmarca]

My test for what should or should not be allowed is simple. Can it be made to look cool? In this case, I'm afraid that the answer to this question is a resounding no.

[Ramorta]

My test for what should or should not be allowed is simple. Can it be made to look cool? In this case, I'm afraid that the answer to this question is a resounding no.

So...according to this logic you would allow glowing flame hands, but not telekenetic grappling...
There are plenty of ways you could describe a character doing this, the one that immediately pops to mind is a "darth vader force choke".

Also, by that logic, you dont allow hacking in your games? Because a guy sitting infront of a computer bashing AR buttons is totally the epic image.

[Fortune]

Not in my games!

But then again, normal Distance Strike doesn't actually exist in my games either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ramorta]

Lets see if I can route this back on topic.

The question as it stands is not "Would you allow this in your game" but "Is this possable via RAW"

Any facts, quotes, or links to anything that would prove this is possable or not possable, would be greatly appreciated.

[Fortune]

Well, the Power is called Distance Strike, not Distance Attack. That alone is good enough for me to rule out its use with a grapple attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But if you want quotes ...

This power allows an adept to “transmit” an unarmed physical attack over a short distance to strike a target with concussive force.

This line from the Power's description seems to describe a striking attack, as opposed to any type of grapple.

[Ramorta]

Well, the Power is called Distance Strike, not Distance Attack. That alone is good enough for me to rule out its use with a grapple attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You could also change the name of the ability to "fluffy bubble attack".
The ability it grants your characters remains the same, how does the name affect the ability?

This power allows an adept to “transmit� an unarmed physical attack over a short distance to strike a target with concussive force.

It also does not list any duration to that effect. Viewing it with the potential to have a longer duration, could that not be percieved as a grapple (Immobolizing your target).

[Dr Funfrock]

It also does not list any duration to that effect. Viewing it with the potential to have a longer duration, could that not be percieved as a grapple (Immobolizing your target).

There is no way you can redefine strike with concussive force over a period of time as grapple. That's just not how grappling works. Concussive force indicates velocity and impact. Simply exerting pressure is not concussive force, even though it can leave bruises and break bones in the same way.

[WeaverMount]

I'm going to assume that you are trying to get this idea approved by a GM. If that is the case I think you would have better luck saying "Physads and unarmed combat are pretty underpowered*. I'd have a lot of fun playing this. Will you let if fly" than "Here is my really tenuous argument for how this is RAW"

*I know that trolls can punch like sniper rifles, and close on people really fast, etc etc etc.

[Ramorta]

No, not trying to get it past a GM. Im just trying to run a mental excercise on how to make a non-lethal character.
Unfortunately, while there is a lot of logical reasons as to why it wouldn't work, I haven't seen any rules that prevent it.
Honestly, I expected a lot more RAW and a lot less "fluff / logic / GM handwaving ".

[Fortune]

I don't know what more you want. I quoted the actual text from the Power's description that specifically outlined the type of attack used with Distance Strike, which is not compatible with that of a sustained, grappling attack. Earlydawn earlier quoted the part where the text describes making a 'normal melee attack' as part of the Power, which is not the same as grappling. There are no other canon rules that I can find regarding this.

[Ramorta]

I'm not trying to be diffacult. However, I am trying to find a definitive answer to this question.

While there are several good points that are being made, I just dont feel the question has been answered.
It very well could be that according to the rules there IS no answer. Which is somewhat disturbing, but I
could at least settle for that.

Since this seems to be one of the big points being made: concussive force
It is not a listed damage type (fire/acid/electricity), at least as far as I can find. So what is it? Personally, I view it as fluff which describes how the attack is visualized by people around it. At which point, how does that factor into the mechanics of how the ability works?

Secondly, 'normal melee attack' is a requirement to make a grapple.

To subdue a character, resolve melee combat normally.

The only thing that I can see would prevent distance strike from qualifying for this is it's ability to be resisted "as if" it was ranged. The attack still qualifys as melee, however.

All in all, I'm really confused about this, and all I want is some solid evidence proving one way or the other.

Again, sorry for being diffacult.

[Fortune]

Well, as far as I can see, there are no other canon rules concerning this. However, there are definitely indications in that the Power acts as a 'strike', and connects with 'concussive force', neither of which can really be used to describe grappling. Even further, we have shown that grappling is not a 'normal melee attack', but a specific and specialized form of offense, even if the combat is resolved normally, as grappling is a sustained form of attack and uses Attributes in a different manner. Even your own quote shows that the target would defend as if in ranged combat, which is not compatible with the grappling rules.

On the other hand, I can find no evidence, or even hints that the Power can be used in conjunction with grappling. Since we have provided a few good points from canon in favor of one side, can you provide canon evidence that shows the Power does indeed work as you desire?

[WearzManySkins]

Well, as far as I can see, there are no other canon rules concerning this. However, there are definitely indications in that the Power acts as a 'strike', and connects with 'concussive force', neither of which can really be used to describe grappling. Even further, we have shown that grappling is not a 'normal melee attack', but a specific and specialized form of offense, even if the combat is resolved normally, as grappling is a sustained form of attack and uses Attributes in a different manner. Even your own quote shows that the target would defend as if in ranged combat, which is not compatible with the grappling rules.

On the other hand, I can find no evidence, or even hints that the Power can be used in conjunction with grappling. Since we have provided a few good points from canon in favor of one side, can you provide canon evidence that shows the Power does indeed work as you desire?

Ahh a Canonista speaks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Since there is no direct RAW ruling concerning this issue(s) continued discussion/debates on this are like the Papal/ArchBishop Discussions of long ago concerning the number of angels that can occupy or dance on the head of a pin.

Yes most entertaining at times but in the end the ruling is not in our hands, that it lies in the Hands of His Most Holiness Pope Synner and his Closeted Clerical Advisers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[crash2029]

The Darth Vader force choke is very cool and would not, in my opinion, be anathema to the spirit of adepts. I suggest a new power that specifically allows you to grapple at a distance.

[Jackstand]

I'm not trying to be diffacult. However, I am trying to find a definitive answer to this question.

While there are several good points that are being made, I just dont feel the question has been answered.
It very well could be that according to the rules there IS no answer. Which is somewhat disturbing, but I
could at least settle for that.

Since this seems to be one of the big points being made: concussive force
It is not a listed damage type (fire/acid/electricity), at least as far as I can find. So what is it? Personally, I view it as fluff which describes how the attack is visualized by people around it. At which point, how does that factor into the mechanics of how the ability works?

Secondly, 'normal melee attack' is a requirement to make a grapple.

The only thing that I can see would prevent distance strike from qualifying for this is it's ability to be resisted "as if" it was ranged. The attack still qualifys as melee, however.

All in all, I'm really confused about this, and all I want is some solid evidence proving one way or the other.

Again, sorry for being diffacult.

It's a melee attack, but it's not a normal melee attack. That it's resisted as though it was ranged precludes it from being normal, and it follows, thus, that it cannot be resolved as normal, therefore preventing it from being used with grappling.

[Faelan]

Pretty clear it cannot be used for grappling from where I am sitting.