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> So.. Shapechange, Or, Gorillas are badass
Cthulhudreams
post Jun 7 2008, 04:27 PM
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So, due to a player in a game that is kicking off on the forums wanting to play a backwoods shamanistic type who shapechanges into a jaugar and rips peoples face off, I had to read the shapechange rules.

Wow, turning into a supercharged great cat is rather powerful. Shame you don't have a gun or armour, but it is still cool because it gives you a 2nd IP and sets all your stats to big numbers.

So I was thinking about it a bit more and eventually thought

"So why don't I like turn into a gorilla. Troll jackets and armoured clothes might even still fit, and I can probably get a gun customised for gorilla hands. Aiming and firing might be a problem" I'd read 'Hell Island' recently were the US army had modified a bunch of gorillas to use guns so that had spurred my thinking

So gorillas with assault rifles, viable, cheese tastic or what?
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Zak
post Jun 7 2008, 04:29 PM
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Reminds me of druids in the game you shall not talk about, abusing the sizing of gear to fit it for their statistically superior animal forms.

Go Legendary Ape. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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crizh
post Jun 7 2008, 04:46 PM
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*cough*

Fashion.

*cough*
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Stahlseele
post Jun 7 2008, 04:59 PM
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shapeshift a troll or an ork and you won't even have that much difference to fight with. .
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Pendaric
post Jun 7 2008, 05:01 PM
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Its your game do as you wish/what your group allows.
In my game you would regret your choice however.
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hyzmarca
post Jun 7 2008, 05:19 PM
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Augmentation biodrone rules allow the opposition to have an army of rigged gorillas with miniguns. If you don't mind your GM throwing such an army at you, I see no problem with it.
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hyzmarca
post Jun 7 2008, 05:19 PM
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Augmentation biodrone rules allow the opposition to have an army of rigged gorillas with miniguns. If you don't mind your GM throwing such an army at you, I see no problem with it.
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WeaverMount
post Jun 7 2008, 06:00 PM
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Ok so regardless of what a horrible idea it would be to do to anyone, especially to a shadowrunner, do you think it's possible to implant the stirrup interface into a shape shifted human?
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Stahlseele
post Jun 7 2008, 06:31 PM
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other question: can the gorilla still talk?
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WeaverMount
post Jun 7 2008, 06:48 PM
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nope. They physically lack the ability to vocalize well enough to use human language. That's why we teach them to sign. Trodes and speakers though ought to let you fake it well enough. While it's not spelled out explicitly in the books, I'm sure that humans wouldn't be the first primates we developed datajacks for. Now finding non-human DNI drives might be a fun secondary objective for a run on research facility.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 7 2008, 07:33 PM
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the target keeps his non physical attributes, meaning he is still thinking like himself . . one COULD argue that trodes should work like usual
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WeaverMount
post Jun 7 2008, 08:09 PM
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IMO the there are only two options for the fine anatomy of a shape shifted individual. Either it now works exactly like the animal in question, or it is that nebulus anti science state like oricalcum. So either you need the chimp DNI drivers, or you can't do it at all
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crizh
post Jun 7 2008, 08:16 PM
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This was being discussed in the other Shapechange thread a couple of days ago and the consensus was that implanted cyberware, that had been paid for with Essence, molded seamlessly into the new form and continued to function.

So, a simple datajack would be all you needed to get around any communication problems.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 7 2008, 09:36 PM
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ah, yes, an ork shifted into a green tiger that talks . . heelloo battlecat *g*
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toturi
post Jun 7 2008, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 8 2008, 05:36 AM) *
ah, yes, an ork shifted into a green tiger that talks . . heelloo battlecat *g*

And you have the power too.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 7 2008, 10:24 PM
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just why the heck do all of those things more or less work out in SR anyway? @.@
that can't be a coincidink! . . well, they could all have been on something good when writing the books *g*
and yes, being the mage and being able to own a weapon-focus sword and a focus that keeps up an STR Buff Spell you can, indeed, have the power o.O
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Glyph
post Jun 8 2008, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE (crizh @ Jun 7 2008, 01:16 PM) *
This was being discussed in the other Shapechange thread a couple of days ago and the consensus was that implanted cyberware, that had been paid for with Essence, molded seamlessly into the new form and continued to function.

So, a simple datajack would be all you needed to get around any communication problems.

An opinion from one poster is hardly a "consensus". If cyberware has been paid for with Essense, it melds into the shapechange as opposed to violently being ripped out of the shapechanger's body. But someone changed into a completely different form does NOT get the benefit of cybereyes, etc. There is nothing in the rules to support this, and it doesn't make sense in the context of a spell that changes you into a critter.


As far as communication goes, the increased use of augmented guard animals and biodrones would make finding communications gear for a dog, ape, etc. more feasible than it would have been in previous editions. And spells such as mindlink would still work.

I generally assume that the shapechange spell includes enough of the critter's basic instincts to do things such as flying for birds, climbing trees for apes, etc. I am not sure how human skills would translate, though. A human martial artist turned into an ape would have a completely different center of gravity, reach, sensory spectrum, and so on. So I have a hard time seeing a maxed-out martial arts skill smoothly translating to the new form.
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crizh
post Jun 8 2008, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 8 2008, 09:05 AM) *
An opinion from one poster is hardly a "consensus". If cyberware has been paid for with Essense, it melds into the shapechange as opposed to violently being ripped out of the shapechanger's body. But someone changed into a completely different form does NOT get the benefit of cybereyes, etc. There is nothing in the rules to support this, and it doesn't make sense in the context of a spell that changes you into a critter.


When there is no dissenting opinion it's a consensus.

There is nothing in the rules to support your opinion either. Which was why it was being discussed. Simply bolding the word 'not' does 'not' make it so.

Shapechange is one of those spells with so much going on under the surface that it is probably best to hand wave most of it. I don't see any good reason to design a spell that is capable of mysteriously creating or destroying mass and not design it to integrate any cyber/medical implants the target may have. Equipment I can see leaving out because OR's vary and it could be complicated to successfully cast.
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Glyph
post Jun 8 2008, 12:37 PM
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I think it would be overly complicated, and not even that feasible, for a spell that only turns someone into critter form to alter artificial enhancements to work in that new form. But you are right, SR4 is vague on this where SR3 spelled it out more explicitly ("Cyberware, paid for with Essense, is transformed into the critter form but cannot be used in that form" - MITS, pg. 148). Hopefully this will be added to the FAQ someday - "What happens to cyberware when someone is shapechanged?"
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ornot
post Jun 8 2008, 12:48 PM
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I've always liked the use of shapechange as an offensive spell. That way you can 'Sheep' aggressors; or better yet, get a dog collar sustaining focus, cast Chihuahua Form on your mortal enemy, and you have a pet for life (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Jun 8 2008, 02:14 PM
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untill he runs through a ward or something like that . . . and don't forget, it's the difference between target and new critter body that makes the spell so hard to cast . .
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Screamin Demon
post Jun 9 2008, 05:32 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 8 2008, 12:37 PM) *
"What happens to cyberware when someone is shapechanged?"


My opinion (As long as we are all posting out opinions) is that mages with cybernetics would not be able to use them as the spell targets them and not the highly technological objects (Object Resistance, anyone? Just because you paid for it with essence doesn't mean its not high tech metal and wires... Right?) stuck in them. I am considering house ruling that mages with cybernetics shouldn't be allowed to shape change at all...

In any case, how are human cybereyes going to work in any other form? Where does your bone lacing go when you turn into an invertebrate? It just won't work.

I could see someone inventing a higher drain version(Cyber Shapeshift or something), but you would be rolling against the object resistance (4+) of they cyberware that you are subtly shifting along with you as so it still functions.

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crizh
post Jun 9 2008, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (Screamin Demon @ Jun 9 2008, 06:32 AM) *
Where does your bone lacing go when you turn into an invertebrate? It just won't work.


Where does your spine go for that matter?
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Apathy
post Jun 9 2008, 03:37 PM
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Since SR3 spelled it out explicitly, and SR4 doesn't list any rules or fluff that states or implies any deviation from the prior ruling, it seems to me that it's reasonable to interpret that the ruling does not change. So shapechanging from a human with +4 strength from muscle aug to a rat, your rat form won't get to keep it's +4 strength.

I'd imagine that this could create some interesting situations, like being contacted by a mage who is shapechanged into something for a run, and is now afraid to change back because his pissed off employer might have triggered his kink bomb.
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Dayhawk
post Jun 9 2008, 04:25 PM
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The mage in my game runs around as a chimp with the multi sense illusion going, to appear human.

Personally I think it's complete cheese. But everyone voted and figured it was ok.
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