So.. Shapechange, Or, Gorillas are badass Options

[crizh]

Your spine is part of what is magicaly effected to turn into critter meat, dork (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
The same magic could not target your cybernetic components without bypassing their inherent technological resistance first. Right? I'm not trying to inject non-awakened logic into the equation...

Firstly, your too kind. Dweeb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Secondly, IANA Biologist, but...

Your skeleton is 70% rock. Hydroxylapatite to be precise. It is deposited by living cells that make up the other 30% of bone. It's inorganic and at a microscopic level dead. It's no more alive than your cyberware, but it's part of you, not an object, your cyber implant stopped being an object, in game terms, when you paid Essence for it, when you invested a part of your spirit in it.

And no, it doesn't have to overcome OR. It only has to overcome OR if the spell says so. Several spells that target objects do not have to overcome OR, it depends on what they do and how they are worded.

[ornot]

I am a biologist, and I'd argue that your skeleton was alive, even though it is inorganic in a strictly chemical sense. But then again, defining life is actually a philosophical sticking point, so there's little point going there.

Personally I'm in the "can't apply logic to magic" camp. Frankly, it's beyond our understanding, and so long as it's balanced and doesn't break the game I'm prepared to accept that it does weird shit. Hence, Shapechange or Critter Form does effectively convert 'ware into living tissue. Although this may have logical implications for how other spells work, or what happens to 'ware implanted into a metahuman while under the effect of a shapechange spell or any number of other things, I think it's pretty clear that the spell is inspired by stories of witches assuming the form of cats or wolves or whatever, and thus it should permit this function.

You could argue that, given the above assumption that 'ware is absorbed into living tissue, 'ware implanted while in a shapechanged form would revert into living tissue when the spell was ended. Since the 'ware does not impact on the original body's integrity, it thus could be argued that it has no essence cost. Hence a mage could arrange for a shed-load of 'ware being implanted into his tiger form, without it causing magic loss for his human form, yet be available when he casts his Tiger Form spell. This is stupid, and if you're a GM and your players are fucking with you like that they need to be hit with the 'tard bat. The same thing goes for most of the stupid shit that isn't explicitly covered in the rules.

In the end the extent to which any spell description can be interpreted in a given game is up to GM fiat, and if you're a player and you don't like the way your GM runs things, talk to them about it and/or find a new group.

[hyzmarca]

Your cyberware is a part of you. Anything that it is paid for with essence is. The spell could no more change you without changing your 'ware than it could change you without changing your skin.

[crizh]

Your cyberware is a part of you. Anything that it is paid for with essence is. The spell could no more change you without changing your 'ware than it could change you without changing your skin.

However the spell is extremely variable in effect. The extent to which it changes your skin and it's function is entirely up to the caster and varies from casting to casting.

Which leads onto my next discourse about Shapechange. What limits are there on the forms you can take? Magicians are not Zoologists. Is there any reason you cannot take the form of creatures of your own invention? So long as you stick to what is biologically possible why not? Are you limited to extant forms? Or can you use extinct forms?

Velociraptor anyone?

[Stahlseele]

can you start and stop the change at will?
can you change so only part of you gets changed?
fangs, claws, eyes, ears etc . . can i make a magical catgirl? O.o

[Jaid]

can you start and stop the change at will?
can you change so only part of you gets changed?
fangs, claws, eyes, ears etc . . can i make a magical catgirl? O.o

no
no
yes... but not with shapechange. you could certainly make a version that allows the form of catgirl. not sure i'd allow you to become something that has never existed, but i would probably allow you to become something that has existed at one point or another using shapechange. so, no catgirls or cthulhu... but you could shapechange into a dinosaur imo. provided the GM feels like coming up with stats for one, and it's within the appropriate body range, that is.

[Apathy]

not sure i'd allow you to become something that has never existed, but i would probably allow you to become something that has existed at one point or another using shapechange. so, no catgirls or cthulhu...

Canon says catgirls do exist, post Haley's comet and surge.

[Pendaric]

Guess they count as metahuman. See heated debate above.

[Jaid]

Canon says catgirls do exist, post Haley's comet and surge.

my point was that catgirls are not a race. if a catgirl who had surged was to have a baby from a catboy father, the child is not necessarily going to be a catgirl/boy, or even necessarily to have SURGEd at all.

[Mordinvan]

true, but if shapechange "can" turn you into an orc, a catgirl should not be beyond its ability.

[Screamin Demon]

Shapechange is a little bit broken if it lets you shapeshift into any metatype. It just becomes an 'Increase all physical attributes' spell for way to little drain. Especially if it stacks with cyberware.

In response to the whole 'bones are dead' argument, it doesn't really matter, because the stickler is the OR of complex technological cyberware. The OR of your own naturally crafted hydroxylapatite bones is non-existent. Make those bones processed metal though and suddenly magic is not so easy. I know the spell doesn't specify OR, but in my own games I am definitely going to rule it myself, otherwise an excellent spell is suddenly just way too good.

[Mordinvan]

Shapechange is a little bit broken if it lets you shapeshift into any metatype. It just becomes an 'Increase all physical attributes' spell for way to little drain. Especially if it stacks with cyberware.

In response to the whole 'bones are dead' argument, it doesn't really matter, because the stickler is the OR of complex technological cyberware. The OR of your own naturally crafted hydroxylapatite bones is non-existent. Make those bones processed metal though and suddenly magic is not so easy. I know the spell doesn't specify OR, but in my own games I am definitely going to rule it myself, otherwise an excellent spell is suddenly just way too good.

I honestly can not see how it would stack with cyber. It remakes the target into whatever shape the caster intends, and that would include any cyber/bio. It gives the target base line stats for that creature, and the spell description makes no reference to including cyber into its calculations.
So yes a human with a body 4+ might be able to change into an orc, but they would keep none of their cyberware. It still has the body +-2 restriction.
Also as has been noted there is a bit of debate about whether meta humans are viable alternate forms, I see no reason by not, if a chimp is a viable form humans and metahumans should be too as we're all primates.

So then any human with ANY cyberware at all suddenly has an OR of 4 or higher? Thats really quite a bad move, and not the intention of the spell at all. If that cyberware was paid for with essence then its part of the person and OR is not a factor. You 'might' be able to argue docking the mage 1 die per point of essence lost when casting it someone but I'm pretty sure thats only for 'health' spells and NOT manipulation spells.

[Glyph]

The shapechange spell is obviously not designed to allow shifting into metahumans. Turning into an ape (to use human gear and maybe even armor) or a parrot (to be able to speak) are messing with what were intended to be limitations of the spell, but are still allowable. Turning into an ork or troll? No. Like Screaming Demon said, that just turns it into an "increase all physical Attributes" spell.

And why would it affect cyberware when petrify and turn to goo don't?

[crizh]

And why would it affect cyberware when petrify and turn to goo don't?

Because both those spells explicitly target only living tissue.

As I was trying to point out above, bone is not living tissue. It is a mineral excretion of living tissue, very similar to a pearl.

Assume for a moment that Shapechange does not result in a number of pre-determined codified forms but that the Magician merely sculpts his body into any form mundane tissue can take and integrate any non-living structure a mundane critter is capable of forming as part of it's phenotype.

If he can take the skeleton he already possesses and alter it to fit the new form and retain almost all of it's functionality why not the cyber-eyes or data-jack he has spent Essence on?

[Mordinvan]

Because both those spells explicitly target only living tissue.

As I was trying to point out above, bone is not living tissue. It is a mineral excretion of living tissue, very similar to a pearl.

Assume for a moment that Shapechange does not result in a number of pre-determined codified forms but that the Magician merely sculpts his body into any form mundane tissue can take and integrate any non-living structure a mundane critter is capable of forming as part of it's phenotype.

If he can take the skeleton he already possesses and alter it to fit the new form and retain almost all of it's functionality why not the cyber-eyes or data-jack he has spent Essence on?

I'd guess because magic is really bad to messing with technology in the first place (see the concept of OR) and even worse at making functional high tech objects. Its entirely possible a encepholon can simply not be made small enough to fit in the skull of a house cat by a skilled technician let alone a magician who would need to pass an OR 4 test to break it letalone make it using magic. It makes more sense to simply treat the cyberware are 'part' of the person and have it turn into whatever X kind of flesh that portion of their anatomy is going to consist of when the spell active.

[crizh]

I'd guess because magic is really bad to messing with technology in the first place (see the concept of OR) and even worse at making functional high tech objects. Its entirely possible a encepholon can simply not be made small enough to fit in the skull of a house cat by a skilled technician let alone a magician who would need to pass an OR 4 test to break it letalone make it using magic. It makes more sense to simply treat the cyberware are 'part' of the person and have it turn into whatever X kind of flesh that portion of their anatomy is going to consist of when the spell active.

It's not an object, it's part of a living creature, it does not suffer from OR.

Surely it makes more sense to reduce the amount that the spell alters the implant if it's technological nature impedes such a transformation.

[Mordinvan]

It's not an object, it's part of a living creature, it does not suffer from OR.

Surely it makes more sense to reduce the amount that the spell alters the implant if it's technological nature impedes such a transformation.

Just look at cyber like wired reflexes or skill wires, that is going to have to be altered substantially to make it fit inside of anything other then the current owner. I just don't think magic would know how to do this and keep the device working. Malfunctioning cyberware linked into your nervous system to that degree is likely going to be crippling > fatal, so its easiest to rule it just turns it into part of the creature you're becoming.

[crizh]

Just look at cyber like wired reflexes or skill wires, that is going to have to be altered substantially to make it fit inside of anything other then the current owner. I just don't think magic would know how to do this and keep the device working. Malfunctioning cyberware linked into your nervous system to that degree is likely going to be crippling > fatal, so its easiest to rule it just turns it into part of the creature you're becoming.

Just look at a pulmonary or lymphatic system, that is going to have to be altered substantially to make it fit inside of anything other than a man-sized primate.

The spell doesn't know how to keep these systems working when you Shapechange into a Spider Crab.

(The spell doesn't know anything according to the spell design rules...)

These biological systems are substantially more complicated than Cyberware and are a perfect example of why Shapechange in particular needs a metric shit ton of Handwavium injected into it to stand up to anything more than cursory scrutiny.

Magic should follow the path of least resistance. The difficulty of transforming cyberware into flesh and bone is substantial compared to simply reshaping it.

The main reason I continue to argue this point is that I have always admired SR's magic system for it's elegance and realism. Obviously there are bits of I don't like, the whole OR thing is game-balance bull-crap, but generally it's the sort of thing that one could reasonably envisage turning out to be true in three years time.

This whole discussion has suspicious similarities to nerfing that occurred to a certain 'shapechangey' spell in a certain 'other' system. It saddens me to see that mind-set creep into SR. OMG Magicians are massively powerful!!

No shit Sherlock.

Just envision what you could achieve with even the most minor of these abilities. The world would be your mollusc of choice.

We shouldn't be scrambling around de-powering Magicians, we should be having fun exploring the possibilities of what could be achieved with creative use of these powers.

[Mordinvan]

Just look at a pulmonary or lymphatic system, that is going to have to be altered substantially to make it fit inside of anything other than a man-sized primate.

The spell doesn't know how to keep these systems working when you Shapechange into a Spider Crab.

(The spell doesn't know anything according to the spell design rules...)

These biological systems are substantially more complicated than Cyberware and are a perfect example of why Shapechange in particular needs a metric shit ton of Handwavium injected into it to stand up to anything more than cursory scrutiny.

Magic should follow the path of least resistance. The difficulty of transforming cyberware into flesh and bone is substantial compared to simply reshaping it.

The main reason I continue to argue this point is that I have always admired SR's magic system for it's elegance and realism. Obviously there are bits of I don't like, the whole OR thing is game-balance bull-crap, but generally it's the sort of thing that one could reasonably envisage turning out to be true in three years time.

This whole discussion has suspicious similarities to nerfing that occurred to a certain 'shapechangey' spell in a certain 'other' system. It saddens me to see that mind-set creep into SR. OMG Magicians are massively powerful!!

No shit Sherlock.

Just envision what you could achieve with even the most minor of these abilities. The world would be your mollusc of choice.

We shouldn't be scrambling around de-powering Magicians, we should be having fun exploring the possibilities of what could be achieved with creative use of these powers.

I'm not argueing high or low powered for anything. I'm just saying my understanding of SR magic is it would be easier for it to work with flesh then metal. So for ease of use it would turn the metal into flesh.
If the system didn't have OR I would be far more inclined to agree with you.

[hyzmarca]

Just look at a pulmonary or lymphatic system, that is going to have to be altered substantially to make it fit inside of anything other than a man-sized primate.

The spell doesn't know how to keep these systems working when you Shapechange into a Spider Crab.

(The spell doesn't know anything according to the spell design rules...)

These biological systems are substantially more complicated than Cyberware and are a perfect example of why Shapechange in particular needs a metric shit ton of Handwavium injected into it to stand up to anything more than cursory scrutiny.

Magic should follow the path of least resistance. The difficulty of transforming cyberware into flesh and bone is substantial compared to simply reshaping it.

The main reason I continue to argue this point is that I have always admired SR's magic system for it's elegance and realism. Obviously there are bits of I don't like, the whole OR thing is game-balance bull-crap, but generally it's the sort of thing that one could reasonably envisage turning out to be true in three years time.

This whole discussion has suspicious similarities to nerfing that occurred to a certain 'shapechangey' spell in a certain 'other' system. It saddens me to see that mind-set creep into SR. OMG Magicians are massively powerful!!

No shit Sherlock.

Just envision what you could achieve with even the most minor of these abilities. The world would be your mollusc of choice.

We shouldn't be scrambling around de-powering Magicians, we should be having fun exploring the possibilities of what could be achieved with creative use of these powers.

Shapechange had always been very limited. It turns the subject into a single non-mtahuman non-magical animal of the spellcaster's choice - cyberware and bioware are transformed as well and do not function as such in the new form. It has always been that way. The nerfing is in the Body difference limitation. Previously, it was difficult to turn a Body 1 character into an elephant but not impossible.

[crizh]

I'm not argueing high or low powered for anything. I'm just saying my understanding of SR magic is it would be easier for it to work with flesh then metal. So for ease of use it would turn the metal into flesh.
If the system didn't have OR I would be far more inclined to agree with you.

Actually, certain metals would be easier to work than flesh. Raw Gold in a stream-bed or still embedded in rock ought to be substantially easier to affect with magic than flesh, flesh gets a resistance roll after all.

I certainly can't agree that it is in any way easy to turn Highly processed goods into flesh. If you absolutely must conclude, either that a particular piece of cyberware is incompatible with a particular form or that cyberware cannot be retained at all while Shapechanged, then it would be much easier to say that it has disappeared into the Biro-Zone along with all your excess mass and other inconvenient stuff your new form does not possess.

As to OR that's a rant for another day.

[Mordinvan]

Actually, certain metals would be easier to work than flesh. Raw Gold in a stream-bed or still embedded in rock ought to be substantially easier to affect with magic than flesh, flesh gets a resistance roll after all.

I certainly can't agree that it is in any way easy to turn Highly processed goods into flesh. If you absolutely must conclude, either that a particular piece of cyberware is incompatible with a particular form or that cyberware cannot be retained at all while Shapechanged, then it would be much easier to say that it has disappeared into the Biro-Zone along with all your excess mass and other inconvenient stuff your new form does not possess.

As to OR that's a rant for another day.

Mostly how I feel about it, and yes I DO HATE the concept of OR.

[Glyph]

I feel the same way. Even if cyberware were retained, I don't see the spell re-working all of that nano-implanted micro circuitry so that the golden retriever that you have turned into has functioning cybereyes. Either the spell affects the cyberware, in which case it is changed with everything else when the new form is assumed, or it doesn't, in which case the character is seriously fragged up. Since the former interpretation is more in line with how the spell has always been treated before, it's the one I would use.

[stormcrow]

As mentioned before, isn't Shapechange what dragons use to take metahuman form? And can't they, in fact, take on different metahuman forms?

[Stahlseele]

no, for certain dragons there was HUMANOID FORM which was a dragon only kinda critter power . .