[X] My Assistant

[Mordinvan]

I'm just curious, I was wondering if this would work as a resurrection method myself. "IF" the characters actual soul could be found, and bound via an ally spirit formula, what would stop it from being bound back to its original body? Or is the idea that the soul can't be found because a) it never existed to begin with, or b) actually died when the character did?

[hyzmarca]

In Earthdawn, several resurrection methods worked but they only worked because the anthropomorphic personification of Death was imprisoned under the Black Sea. Death, obviously, isn't imprisoned there anymore. And, unlike the Passions, she is still widely known across all cultures of the Earth, meaning that she probably hasn't been weakened during the downcycle.
I imagine that Death would make every effort to stop any magical resurrection from being successful.

[raggedhalo]

Inhabitation power, pg. 100, Street Magic:

"If the vessel inhabited by the spirit was living, the spirit gains complete control over the body and some access to its memories. During merging, the vessel's original spirit is consumed and for all intents and purposes that character is essentially lost (though, as always, gamemasters may decide otherwise if appropriate to their stories)." (emphasis mine)

Limts of Sorcery, pg. 160, Street Magic:

"Sorcery Cannot Raise The Dead
Though spells can heal, once a person has passed away, they are gone forever (though some view conjuring spirits as raising the spirits of the dead)."

Now, personally, I would never take any option other than 3 as a GM; and actually, I don't like that the Ally Spirit has the old character's memories one bit. But it seems entirely within the rules, if not in keeping with the spirit of Shadowrun more generally, to do Options 1 or 2. I would say that it should depend on the summoner's tradition, though: only black magicians and traditional/hedge witches see spirits as being the souls of the dead, and actually only traditional/hedge witches' write-up mentions it.

[Zak]

Going somewhat off topic:
The body of the newly created Ally is part of the ally formula, what happens in case the hostbody gets destroyed?
Let's assume it was a perfect flesh form for this line of thought.

Is it simply enough to adjust the formula to summon the ally again, or are you screwed forever?
Does the ally spirit get to keep all the former hosts skills, even when thrown into a new body?

[ornot]

My immediate instinct is to go with option 3 as being the actual truth, but as the OP said, it will never become clear in game so it doesn't really matter. I am curious as to whether the original player is actually playing the character or not.

[HentaiZonga]

My immediate instinct is to go with option 3 as being the actual truth, but as the OP said, it will never become clear in game so it doesn't really matter. I am curious as to whether the original player is actually playing the character or not.

Nope, it's still an NPC.

[WeaverMount]

Ok there is actually one way you could tell. IMO spirits are spirits and they don't have any earthly knowledge or form not informed by the conjurror or the nature of magic. If that is true, a hedge witch could conjure a "ghost" that look and acted how the witch thinks they would act as a ghost. Here is the rub, The spirit doesn't have any information the summoner does not. So "Melody" would know question the summoner could think to ask and the answer would always be what they thought it should be, but just be a construct via Solaris. It's likely that the conjurer couldn't supply knowledge of Melody's family, old friend, especially secure keys, stashes, and safe houses. I like this option because for you as a GM it means you have a quick and easy way to decide where the memory wholes are. Also if you players are really on there game they can actually detect a pattern. I think figuring that out would be really rewarding as a player.

[Snow_Fox]

You don't need to treat me like I am stupid.

I won't if you won't

That's not really what I would call writing as a 'narrator', a word I associate more with storytelling than with technical writing (which is more appropriate for describing the rules). With your use of that word, I thought you were discussing the flavor parts of the text.

they've never really come up with a term for it but I was writing about Missing Blood Which was the adventure. If I'd said UB which was mainly shadow talk I could see the confusion more easily.

Be that as it may, the text you quoted does not make any blanket statements whatsoever about Insect Spirit victims being unrecoverable. It merely discusses the three particular victims in that specific situation. Even more, it technically only states that one of the victims is unrecoveable. It doesn't actually mention anything about the other two victims being totally beyond help.

Nigel Findly wrote more of the cannonical stuff on bugs. It think it is fair to sday what he put down is pretty much set in stone.
That having been said I'm well aware there are conflicting reports of bug powers in differnt modules that can be acscribed to 'differences in magic' if you want to be charitable in place of the more accurate-loose editing.

[hyzmarca]

Ok there is actually one way you could tell. IMO spirits are spirits and they don't have any earthly knowledge or form not informed by the conjurror or the nature of magic. If that is true, a hedge witch could conjure a "ghost" that look and acted how the witch thinks they would act as a ghost. Here is the rub, The spirit doesn't have any information the summoner does not. So "Melody" would know question the summoner could think to ask and the answer would always be what they thought it should be, but just be a construct via Solaris. It's likely that the conjurer couldn't supply knowledge of Melody's family, old friend, especially secure keys, stashes, and safe houses. I like this option because for you as a GM it means you have a quick and easy way to decide where the memory wholes are. Also if you players are really on there game they can actually detect a pattern. I think figuring that out would be really rewarding as a player.

They have Melody's still living body, so the inhabitating spirit will have all of her memories.

The fact that they do have it is a violation of the rules, however, as an Inhabiting spirit can only be disrupted if the host is killed.

[Daier Mune]

this is a great thread. it sounds a lot like the cybermancy procedures. a lot like it. i think that the similarities between the original Melody and the new Melody would be enough to convince those around her that she was the real Melody and not an impostor. any behavioral oddities would probably be shrugged off as long-standing trauma from being inhabited/dead.

as for Melody herself, i think it'd be more complicated. as she herself is a mage, i'm sure she's aware of that the Laws of Magic state, and a cursory investigation into metaplanar quests and the spirit realms will turn up the fact that no one knows where the spirit goes at death, and theres no way to verify that spirits brought back from the great beyond are the real deal.

the inability to prove to herself that she is indeed the real Melody will rest in the back of her mind like a sharp stone stuck in your shoe. yes, she has access to all of Melody's memories (and the bug spirit's memory, which is terrifying enough) but there is no way for her to know if those are her memories or not. every time she passes a mirror she'll never know if its her face looking back at her.

over the years the feelings confusion and paranoia will build upon each other, threatening to eat away at her mind.

[HentaiZonga]

They have Melody's still living body, so the inhabitating spirit will have all of her memories.

The fact that they do have it is a violation of the rules, however, as an Inhabiting spirit can only be disrupted if the host is killed.

There are other ways, but most of them require that the spirit willingly ditch the body.

[FrankTrollman]

There are other ways, but most of them require that the spirit willingly ditch the body.

Uh... I actually wrote the inhabitation rules, and I'm pretty sure spirits can't ditch the body.

[Looks at Street Magic]

Yep.

An inhabiting spirit permanently merges with a prepared vessel, and cannot be separated with Banishing or even by the spirit's own choice. An inhabiting spirit is not disrupted until the vessel is killed from Physical damage overflow

I recalled myself being pretty clear on that point, and looking back on it, it seems that I was.

-Frank

[HentaiZonga]

Uh... I actually wrote the inhabitation rules, and I'm pretty sure spirits can't ditch the body.

[Looks at Street Magic]

Yep.



I recalled myself being pretty clear on that point, and looking back on it, it seems that I was.

-Frank

Aha. Sorry 'bout that. Hrm. *thinks* I'll have to figure out some excuse for why it worked, then.

[Apathy]

So what happens when an inhabiting spirit is hit with a successful banishing test? What happens when they fill all their available stun track?

[FrankTrollman]

So what happens when an inhabiting spirit is hit with a successful banishing test?

Nothing. You can only use Banishing to cast out a possessing spirit. The attempt literally can't do anything to an inhabiting spirit.

What happens when they fill all their available stun track?

Same thing that happens to a possessing spirit: they pass out. Then they lie there being unconscious. Eventually they wake up again.

-Frank

[WeaverMount]

They have Melody's still living body, so the inhabitating spirit will have all of her memories.

The fact that they do have it is a violation of the rules, however, as an Inhabiting spirit can only be disrupted if the host is killed.

I missed that. I was assuming that the body was dead because the spirit left, and my understanding of brain damage from (death induced) asphyxiation lead me to believe memories would degrade past recovery well be for they could get a spirit back in the body

[Johnny Jacks]

The fact that they do have it is a violation of the rules, however, as an Inhabiting spirit can only be disrupted if the host is killed.

Out of curiosity, how dead would she have to be? I mean... could they just find a way to stop her heart, wait for the spirit to leave, and then resuscitate the body? That'd be pretty easy even with today's medical technology.

[Mordinvan]

Uh... I actually wrote the inhabitation rules, and I'm pretty sure spirits can't ditch the body.

[Looks at Street Magic]

Yep.



I recalled myself being pretty clear on that point, and looking back on it, it seems that I was.

-Frank

You could could shoot the body in the heart to 'kill' it.
Then have a great plant spirit possess it to repair the damage, and then find X person's spirit to 'inhabit' it.

[Fortune]

I won't if you won't

Interesting. I asked a question about the possibility of Bugs lying. I wasn't even rude in the process of doing so. Are you telling me that you equate asking a question with treating you as if you are stupid?

Nigel Findly wrote more of the cannonical stuff on bugs. It think it is fair to sday what he put down is pretty much set in stone.

Yes he did. Note that I never commented on any of that writing, but merely on the quote you provided. The quote you provided did not back up your earlier claim of canon stating that 'when the bug moves in the human is gone beyond redemption'. If you have a better quote, then maybe you should use that one instead.

[Jaid]

Limts of Sorcery, pg. 160, Street Magic:

"Sorcery Cannot Raise The Dead
Though spells can heal, once a person has passed away, they are gone forever (though some view conjuring spirits as raising the spirits of the dead)."

emphasis mine.

nothing says that magic cannot raise the dead, only that sorcery cannot. it's still up in the air.

on a side note, it is theoretically possible to have an ally spirit inhabit another spirit, if i'm not mistaken. (which could presumably add up to some rather silly things happening, though i haven't really checked to be certain).

as such, the simplest 'ret-con' is probably just to rule that they didn't actually banish the spirit, but that the banishing attempt instead acted like an attack of will that knocked out the insect spirit (apparently for an abnormally long time, since preparing a vessel takes minimum 1 day), which was then inhabited by the ally spirit.

[Jackstand]

Limts of Sorcery, pg. 160, Street Magic:

"Sorcery Cannot Raise The Dead-
Though spells can heal, once a person has passed away, they are gone forever (though some view conjuring spirits as raising the spirits of the dead)."

nothing says that magic cannot raise the dead, only that sorcery cannot. it's still up in the air.

It does say that magic cannot raise the dead, though, along with everything else. Just because the sentence happens to be under a topic concerning sorcery doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to other things. Since sorcery is the route by which one would be most likely to attempt to create a means of ressurrection, the matter is addressed there.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It does say that magic cannot raise the dead, though, along with everything else.

Where, exactly?

And, given the stated ED connection, stealing from Death is nothing new.

[Jackstand]

I quoted it, exactly. Look up. It's the bold part.

[Fortune]

It does say that magic cannot raise the dead, though, along with everything else. Just because the sentence happens to be under a topic concerning sorcery doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to other things. Since sorcery is the route by which one would be most likely to attempt to create a means of ressurrection, the matter is addressed there.

No, the wording is quite specific. Similar wording for what amounts to basically the same disclaimer has been used throughout Shadowrun's history.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I quoted it, exactly. Look up. It's the bold part.

Just there is nothing there that reads 'magic can't raise the dead'.
In fact, Cybermancy is build around that fine point.