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> What Would Shares in Saedar-Krupp Let You Do?
FlakJacket
post Jun 8 2008, 01:29 PM
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An age back when Dunkelzahn's Will came out several of the people that sent back the voting slips for the 2057 election got a mention in the will under their real names for one of the token bequests. They also got some other freebies and one person, I want to say that it was Fortune but I can't remember for sure, got a certificate for one share of Saeder-Krupp signed by Lofwyr (well Mike Mulvihill signed it as Lofwyr) I believe. Which gave me an idea. So supposing by some means that we'll not bother getting into a single share of Saeder-Krupp stock, or a long lost share from one of the major corporations that became Saeder-Krupp and was long ago subsumed into it surfaces, gets legally outside the corportion somehow and owned by someone other than Lofwyr. We'll assume that for the purposes of voting control of the corporation and dividends that it's negligable but it's still a legitimate share.

Since I know fairly little about these types of things what would it allow you do or know about the corporation? Does it being a private corporation or a German one change anything? And what do people think might be the effects if this share were to get out there and then various people were to hear that it was floating around out there? Well aside from absolute chaos. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jun 8 2008, 01:50 PM
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It's more a collectible than anything else. Trying to pull something with it will get you disowned for a standard rate.
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CanRay
post Jun 8 2008, 01:53 PM
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Or invited to dinner with Lofwyr.

Possibly AS dinner.
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Naysayer
post Jun 8 2008, 01:55 PM
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As a certified Saeder-Krupp shareholder, you'd probably be privvy to some of the corp's performance reports.
And most likely the piqued interest of a certain great western...
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Ancient History
post Jun 8 2008, 02:22 PM
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Minority shareholder lawsuits! Injunctions! Dividend payments!
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Faelan
post Jun 8 2008, 03:24 PM
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If it was legitimate? Probably dead. SK being a 100% privately owned corporation has 0 shares issued. If it was a legal share from after it went private again, it would make you a 50% owner in SK. In other words it would make you dinner.
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Fortune
post Jun 8 2008, 03:36 PM
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I did indeed receive a mention in the Will, and part of the prize was a share certificate, but not for Saeder Krupp (that was someone else, as all the shares were different, as far as I know). My share certificate was for the Atlantean Foundation, which I find strangely fitting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Aaron
post Jun 8 2008, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 8 2008, 09:22 AM) *
Minority shareholder lawsuits! Injunctions! Dividend payments!

Who the heck pays dividends any more?
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JoelHalpern
post Jun 8 2008, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Faelan @ Jun 8 2008, 11:24 AM) *
If it was legitimate? Probably dead. SK being a 100% privately owned corporation has 0 shares issued. If it was a legal share from after it went private again, it would make you a 50% owner in SK. In other words it would make you dinner.


Actually, at least in American law, the difference between a private corporation and a public corporation is NOT whether or not they have shares of stock.
That is the difference between a sole proprietorship, a partnership, and a corporation. If you want something incorporated, there has to be stock. That is (simplified) how you tell Inc. (or Corp.) from other things. (LLCs make this more complicated, but don't change the basic idea.) Now, SK may be a sole propietorship. But if it is a private corporation, that merely means that the shares are not listed on the public market, and there are restirctions on how they may be transfered. In many cases, any transfer except to immediate family in a will reuires the consent of the board of directors of the corporation.

(Yes, I probably know too much about how corporations really work for my own good. Particularly considering I am neither a lawyer not an accountant.)

Yours,
Joel
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FlakJacket
post Jun 8 2008, 04:35 PM
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That's what I thought, whilst they're not traded publically on a stock they'd still need to issue to the shareholders a legal minimum number of shares. Although I've got no idea of what the rule is in Germany.

I wonder how much a Mr. J. Spinrad of Monaco, or indeed any number of AAA or AA corporations, might be willing to pay for something like this.
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Faelan
post Jun 8 2008, 04:46 PM
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Thanks for all the detail, I am sure it helped some others out. The thing is my assumption is based off the fact that Lofwyr owns 100%, which by definition would make it a sole proprietorship. Since it is a corporation it would most likely be an S Corporation, which has no rules governing actual number of shares, merely the number of shareholders (which I believe is under 100 with no minimum). I am sure none of this matters in the sixth world, though a bunch of mystery shares might be a good plot device for setting off a corporate war, or power struggle within an individual corp. Either way it would make the owners life interesting to say the least.
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Dr Funfrock
post Jun 8 2008, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (Faelan @ Jun 8 2008, 11:24 AM) *
If it was legitimate? Probably dead. SK being a 100% privately owned corporation has 0 shares issued. If it was a legal share from after it went private again, it would make you a 50% owner in SK. In other words it would make you dinner.


It isn't 100% anymore.

BBB, Page 43: "The great dragon owns nearly 100% of this German-based megacorp"

QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 8 2008, 11:42 AM) *
Who the heck pays dividends any more?


People who like making money. If Lofwyr wants to get money from his 99.whatever % shares he needs to pay dividends. He gets 99.whatever % of those dividends, but as a shareholder you get a little slice of the pie too.


Being a legal shareholder would entitle you to information. Any shareholder, as an investor, has the right to know how the corporation is managing their investment. That means they have a right to demand access to various documentation, as well as bringing in outside advisors and investigators to determine how responsibly the corporation is handling their money.

A legal shareholder can attend any shareholder's meeting. Their vote counts for nothing, because Lofwyr has the controlling vote, but he has to call the meetings in order to exercise that vote, and that means that you get to attend, or see the minutes, and hear in full detail what is being voted on, and the reasons for and against.


Remember that Lofwyr is just one dragon, and just one corp. He has to appear to play ball like everyone else, because the corporate court is nine other corps, and he still can't ignore that.
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ludomastro
post Jun 8 2008, 06:09 PM
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I hold stock in one of the major oil companies. Every year I get a copy of the annual report and an invitation to the share holder's meeting. Also in the same envelope is a proxy card that allows me to instruct someone else to vote my interests in my absence - let's assume for the sake of simplicity that they actually do as I ask. Attached to said proxy is the recommendation of the board of directors. The last go round, There were 9 shareholder proposed changes to the way the company does business. I didn't particularly care for the board's recommendations - "Board advises you to vote no." - and voted yes for 7 of the 9 choices. However, none passed. Simply put my few shares are not enough to matter.

In fact, John D. Rockefeller's grandkids tried some similar proposals with Exxon last month. Despite the fact that grandpa started the company, they no longer have enough stock to control the vote.

By the way, a "private" corporation does NOT split evenly with a single outstanding share that was "missed". That outstanding share just means the individual has a very small stake in a private corporation. Lofwyr might even invite you to dinner as a form of amusement - more of a novelty than anything else.
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CanRay
post Jun 8 2008, 06:36 PM
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The minority of shares that "Golden Snoot" (As one person called him) doesn't have are probably lost in someone's safety deposit box or under a bed somewhere. He bought up all that could be found.

"Bought" being a euphanism for "Aquired".
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Snow_Fox
post Jun 8 2008, 07:19 PM
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Ok just to step in here, since I do this crap in the real world, this covers a lot, so did joel and naysayer.
a sinlge share entitles you to a single vote on proxy's or putting osmeone on the board. By comparrison, some one with 10 shares, has 10 yotes. someone with 150 shares has 150 votes etc. So you have no real influence on a magacorp.
BUT it does give you an in to the corp. if there is a shareholder meeting, you have the right to attend. That does mean you will be in close quarters to the chairman. Think the "greed is good" speach in the movie Wall Street. It give You the right to regularly receive annual and semi annual reports on how the corp is doing and these reports must be accurate. You cannot lie in them. Now a significant change in policy or direction MUST be reported but you do not have to give all the facts. Of course there are secrets.

For example the mutual fund company I work for will only release the companies we hold a few months out. We want you to buy our product and not just reproduce what the fund managers produce by following their lead. You call up tomorrow and ask what we hold as of last friday-too bad "we do not discuss current investments" and i don't care if you've got $100,000 that is propriatar information of the company and we do not share it. SEC audits make sure the numbers match up but if you'd like we can tell you what we held as of the end of January. Recently a broker said he was pulling $14 million out because I wouldn't tell him what we were currently holding. I held firm. He pulled the money and my boss said I did the right thing.

But there was a proxy on the firm recently, voting for the board of directors and a changein the direction of one of the funds. All those details, in highly technical jargon, has to be sent out to all share holders. That means holding a share you're getting that stuf and calling for a vote on the board, the members have to include a bio, to explain why you might want to vote for them.

YThere are usually dividends and capital gains. Some companys WANT to produce these, lots of bonds and stuff and it provides a nice revenue for retirees. Others have just equity and only have gains if they sell something. This could happen with SK-even if they only sell one subsidary to another this can result in a cap gain and change in the report.
only pennies per share but it's information.

Lastly-as was pointed out, you just hit the radar. "who is this guy?" Like most gifts from a dragon it's double edghed, but you're suddenly in play. Heck even if you live in a card board box or sling spuds as a line chef and you think the most exciting thing that ever happened was getting your hand burned in the frierlator, people will now be asking what's so special about you that a great dragon now remembers you?

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Kithran
post Jun 8 2008, 07:19 PM
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Assuming Lowfyr has more than 50% of the total shares then hejust cashes his dividen'd probably not be bother if Joe Average has a single share _provided_ Joe Average doesn't cause problems. If Joe just cashes his dividend cheque, doesn't try to aquire too much inside information (equivalent of the annual report wouldn't be an issue, trying to find out location of all company facilities would) etc. then Lowfyr wouldn't bother you - he has no need to, and if he did bother you its far more likely to cause him problems (in terms of bad press rather than anything Joe can do) in the long term. Of course if Joe wanted to sell his share Lowfyr would snap it up.

Kithran
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hobgoblin
post Jun 8 2008, 07:28 PM
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this reminds me of a episode of mnemosyne where one of the main characters owns a single stock in the corp that creates the major computer security packages. this to get inside info about those packages.
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Snow_Fox
post Jun 8 2008, 07:32 PM
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like i said, just owning stock doesn't give you insite to company secrets. invoting for the board you are trusting them to run the show. if you don't like what they are doing you can try to get osmeone else elected or sell your share.
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CanRay
post Jun 8 2008, 07:43 PM
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But the reports do give a few ideas of what's going on. Nothing secret, no, but knowing that Ares is preparing to do a major advertisement blitz is a good reason to either do runs, or not do runs, on them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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hobgoblin
post Jun 8 2008, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jun 8 2008, 09:32 PM) *
like i said, just owning stock doesn't give you insite to company secrets. invoting for the board you are trusting them to run the show. if you don't like what they are doing you can try to get osmeone else elected or sell your share.


heh, one never know what some dumb corp would put in a internal report (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

but then, its a anime, so its more dramatic or humor reasons then logic that something like that was put in there...
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Snow_Fox
post Jun 8 2008, 08:03 PM
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YOU want to tell the chairman of SK he's 'some dumb corp'? remember you are tasty and go well with katsup
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hobgoblin
post Jun 8 2008, 08:06 PM
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heh, SK may never do much a thing as i suspect every damn report made "public" is personally read and re-read by old scaly himself to make sure they are worded exactly right...

but with laws changing between vote and final writeup thanks to lowly assistants getting the job of doing the writing, i dont see how there could not be some info slipped into some report or other that should not have been there...
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Snow_Fox
post Jun 8 2008, 08:22 PM
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the vote is based on the final report. changes made afterward or in documents not presented do not count. the trick is to write them in such dense jargon that people give up trying to read it.
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CanRay
post Jun 8 2008, 08:30 PM
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And that assumes he even writes it in a language known to modern metahumans. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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hobgoblin
post Jun 8 2008, 08:31 PM
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note, what i wote about was someone that cracked into system defended by the products of the corp. and used those reports as another source of info about what to expect...
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