Zeplins., How big are they? How could one use them? Options

[Stahlseele]

but the planes of old were made of wood and tin and not heavy metal and as such did weight in at much less than modern planes i'd say . . ok, ultra-light planes should be no big problem O.o

[CanRay]

Actually, in a Deadlands: Hell On Earth game, there was a Zepplin with Ultralights that had to fight off a group of LAVs.

Needless to say, they were somewhat outmatched.

[Fuchs]

As I said, only four biplanes were carried. And both the ships did crash. But it's a real life example of an airship aircraft carrier.

[Stahlseele]

there were more than those two, technically speaking . . as far as i know, several zeppelins back int he day did carry at least one plane with them . .

[Straight Razor]

what really sucks is that when the planes drop you have to dump 50,000$ worth of helium into the atmosphere or else fall into the sky and explode from over pressure.

As for air elementals WOW i'd pay some GOOD money to have one escort a blimp.

The little 5k blimp i made was a tethered type. it was made as a camera platform, i bet a rigger could cram in a rigged sniper rifle on a micro turret.g

[CanRay]

One of my PCs was looking through Arsenal, and we started working on an idea for a company with a Blimp that I'll be writing about later in "From The Shadows".

Another friend pointed out the issues of updrafts from city streets (This is why the Mooring Lines on the Empire State Building were never used for their intended purpose, BTW), and I came up with a solution.

Air Spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In fact, if you can meet the price that a Free Spirit of the Air wants, you might even get a good bargain. Don't forget, they're not often after (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , but something else... Might be cheap priced.

[PBTHHHHT]

Well, depending on the accuracy of the figures from wikipedia... We'll assume all numbers are correct unless otherwise proven.

upon reading the entry, the Macon carried five of the biplanes. The entry on the biplanes themselves give loaded and empty weights.
empty weight: 2,114 lb (961 kg)
Loaded weight: 2,776 lb (1,262 kg)

I'll go with the empty weight just because we know for sure if the Macon can carry five, well, we know it's more than that but how much more? The article talked about removal of landing gear and addition of fuel tanks, etc... well, for simplicity sake, let's just go with empty weight.

So that's 5 x (2114) = 10,570 lb.

So what can you stick on there (weight wise) to fly off an equivalent to the Macon?
As for modern day vehicles say a personal rotorcraft... (all these I picked since they're military, there are lighter/smaller civilian stuff but I'm just going with these).

the classic bell sioux scout weighs:
Empty weight: 1,893 lb (858 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 2,950 lb (1,340 kg)

while Kiowa
OH-5A
Empty weight: 1,553 lb (704 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 2313 lb (1049 kg)
OH-5D
Empty weight: 3,290 lb (1,490 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 5,200 lb (2,358 kg)

Oh and I'll include a little bird
Empty weight: 1,591 lb (722 kg)
Useful load: 1,509 lb (684 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 3,100 lb (1,406 kg)

Though, the MD 500 Defender helo looks like it has some nice weapon options.

Hmmm... so you can fit a few of the light stuff. The heavier stuff like the apache, something like the Macon would only carry one at max weight, those were listed over 6,000 with a full weight of 10,000 or so.

What's interesting is the Gloster E.28/39, first british fighter jet.
Empty weight: 2,886 lb (1,309 kg)
Loaded weight: 3,748 lb (1,700 kg)

So you can put a couple jets (just 2, maybe 3). Though the XF-85 Goblin is a design that I enjoyed reading about, which is another parasite fighter, which has 4 fifty cals, not too shabby.

Ok, I have no clue about the feasibility of launching rotocrafts or jet fighters off a zepelin but on a weight basis, it's kinda interesting.
addendum: it was stahseele's comment about the biplanes being so light that only ultralights would be on there and I didn't think biplanes were that light to be equivalent to an ultralight. No, you can fight on a couple of glouceisters possibly or if you get some newer age materials you can probably trim their weights by a bit. Much better to have a few jets than ultralights fending off the enemy drones... Then again, I hope the airship has a few drones already, it's basically mandatory equipment in shadowrun now.

[Dumori]

The zeppelins in SR have jet/trust engines look at page 100 of arsenal with the trust of these i feel that some form of air craft could be carried or at least the fuel and supplies for them.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

There's been some useful discussion in this thread. I once had a campaign where we made incredible use of blimp drones in 2nd edition. We got a vast network of them, got licenses to scatter them about Seattle, charged for advertising space on them, and fitted them with sensor packages so we could keep tabs on the whole city. In some key areas, we also fitted them with sniper rifles, rocket launchers, or just emergency care packages that could be dropped as we passed by. We only felt comfortable doing that in areas where we didn't expect the drones to get searched ever, but the ones downtown still had sensors, which was very useful.

Throughout the campaign, we were also building a zepelin airbase. Thing was enormous, but we figured out that if you REALLY wanted to, you could make the thing damn near invincible. Wouldn't be cost-effective at all, but if you're retiring shadowrunners looking for a certain "bad-ass" quality, having a floating airbase above the clouds is pretty nifty.

[Method]

The other thing to consider is the level of technology available when the USS Macon and USS Akron were built. I'm fairly confident that with SR technology they can build larger and more stable flight platforms that can carry more weight.

The wikipedia page for the USS Akron said it was carrying 73 people when it crashed. Thus we can conclude that transporting a fair number of troops isn't that difficult. So the basic problem then is that canon LAV's are too heavy, what with having armor equivalent to a light tank. Why not create a light weight "shuttle" LAV? Even if the air ship could only support one, the thing could make repeated trips.

To compensate for the lack of armor on the LAV the air ship could be equipped with a small army of flying drones and long range artillery (I'm thinking along the lines of an AC-130H Spectre) with the sole function of suppressing an area long enough for the LAV shuttle to deliver a load of troops. Once you have a unit or two on the ground they could likewise secure the LZ for further transports. This would not be unlike the Air Assault tactics used by the U.S. military during the Viet Nam War. Those UH-1 "Huey" Iroquois never had very much armor.

[Dumori]

Or i could use a lightened sky train or just have it fly to a set hight and have the men run on mid air. As a sky train body 30 can hold a cyitmaster i think that a 36 zeppelin that rips up trees can carry the apc and men if not the transport

[Kyoto Kid]

...Dumori, that has to be one of the best signatures I've seen in a long while (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

That's going on the wall above my desk at work.

[Dumori]

Why thank you for that. It amused my gravely when at school thus i had to scribe it on my arm to use as a sig. Im warming to the skytrain idea. Any idea for stating a mill spec motorbike the doge look a bit flimsy.

[Straight Razor]

side note: lighter that air is a misnomer. Airships and blimps are not actual lighter that air. becoming lighter than air is actually a pilot's greatest fear. blimps fall up. The power plant of an airship, the fins, and to a small degree the filt effect of the body keep a airship up.

As for modern tech. that only helps a little. Lighter envelope and gondola, better power to weight ratio on the power plant.
all in all i would say in the SR world something the size of the Hindenburg could carry 10 metric tons of cargo, with a crew of 50 and room for 25 passengers.
you'll need a facility to maintain it.
ground crew of 100 people
mooring mast and hangers any where you plan on being more that a week other than near the facility

in airship VS storm storm ALWAYS wins, unless you can get it above the storm. hangers are a must.

so...
20,000,000 blimp
1,000,000 facility
500,000 per extra landing field(includes hanger)
20,000 per day operating coast ( helium loss, repairs, maintenance, work crew)

that is really close to RL

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."

someone is a dune fan. i just finished sandworms my self.

[Dumori]

I have actualy had very littel to do with dune I have heard of it though.

[Straight Razor]

blaspheme!! go to the book store and buy all 6 books now! (the last two by his son were not that great)

[Dumori]

I would and are planing to pick out a bundle of classic SF books but atm I think I have £15-30 to my name so book aren't to high on my list of thing to get.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I'd advise caution with Dune. The first one's great sci-fi adventure. The second one gets political, and the series more or less stays focused on the intrigue. I'm a poli-sci nerd and get into that sort of stuff (I was parliamentarian of the student confederation back in college), but even I have my limits. I've read all of the original novels except the last one, but the last two that I read, I kind of felt like I was just reading them out of duty because I was so close to the series' end (I'll probably still pick up Chapterhouse someday, and be totally lost because it's been 8 years since I looked at a Dune book). At one point, though, someone refuses to get cybereyes, and it totally makes sense to you as a Shadowrun player

[ Spoiler ]

because cybereyes would lower Muad'dib's essence, and then he wouldn't be able to see the future as well because his max magic would be cut down

.

[Stahlseele]

you
are
such
a
nerd
. . . .
personally, i don't see the big hick hack about Dune . . i watched the movies, i read the books, i did not think any of those were particularly good . .
but back to topic . . Dune is lightyears away from zeppelins . . they don't even have those on that blasted planet . . no good backwater underdeveloped uncool place ._.

[Wesley Street]

Books one through three of Dune are classic sci-fi and must-reads. Four through six are okay though it's obvious that Frank Herbert was under contract to write them. Kind of like early Prince. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Kevin Anderson and Brian Herbert's contributions are abominations.

[Method]

Totally off topic here but...

I was talking to a surgeon here in Seattle that treated Frank Herbert's wife back in the day. He said he'd never heard of the guy or Dune and the first time he met Frank he thought he was a delusional whacko based on his appearance. The doc said all his delusional patients claim to be writers and only the real crazy ones claim to be sci-fi writers.... very funny.

He also said that after talking to him for a bit he had to ask Frank if he was a doctor because he was obviously brilliant and was asking questions far beyond those of a lay person...

[Dumori]

New thread for dune stuff in general gaming
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=22409

On topic can any one help me stat some paramilitary grunts not too well train just ticked out with mill spec shaz.

[Stahlseele]

are they zeppelin pilots? O.o
if not, how's that supposed to rerail this thread to airships? *gg*

[Dumori]

If you read my first post you'd see I'm useing air ships zeplins as transports and fire platfroms.

[hyzmarca]

If I were going to build an airship I would create one with a hanging open-deck gondola and crew it with cutlass-wielding one-eyed Johnny Depp look-alikes equipped with bandannas and shoulder-parrots and possessing a penchant for using "Arr" as an exclamation.