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> The need for speed, Stacking initiative boosters
paws2sky
post Jun 11 2008, 06:53 PM
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I know a character is limited to 4 IPs. Does it say anywhere what, if any, limits there are how you end up with that many IPs?

Could a character speedball Jazz and Cram for 3 IPs total?

Could character with Wired Reflexes (1) or Synaptic Booster (1) take a hit of Jazz to get 3 IPs?

Can someone with Move-By-Wire (1) benefit from an Increase Reflexes spell?

Just curious,
-paws
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Muspellsheimr
post Jun 11 2008, 06:59 PM
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Wired, Synaptic, Move-by, & Increase Reflexes all specifically state they do not stack with other Initiative Enhancement. Drugs do not follow this rule by RAW that I am aware of, but I would give the same ruling just the same for sake of consistency.
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WeaverMount
post Jun 11 2008, 07:08 PM
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'ware and spells very specifically don't stack. How do other handle the drugs? Are the just to beef up the un-agumented or can the sam get a little some'n'some'n?
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Muspellsheimr
post Jun 11 2008, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (SR4 p.188)
...and the increase cannot be combined with technological or other magical increases to Initiative.

QUOTE (SR4 p.335)
Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement.

QUOTE (SR4 p.340)
The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement.

Technology & Magic cannot be combined
Technology & Drugs cannot be combined
Magic & Magic cannot be combined
Technology & Technology cannot be combined.
Magic & Drugs can be combined (as far as I can tell by RAW)
Drugs & Drugs can be combined (as far as I can tell by RAW)

Suggested ruling - No form of Initiative Pass enhancement can be combined. [Edit] Except Edge [/Edit]
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WeaverMount
post Jun 11 2008, 07:56 PM
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Totally this is actually one of the clearest things in RAW. I know that other people house rule this a lot and I was asking people what there table is like
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paws2sky
post Jun 11 2008, 08:09 PM
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Okay, I missread about the line on Improved Reflexes, Wired Reflexes, and Synaptic Booster. I was thought it was referring to implants only. Oops. At least that jives with previous editions. (Is there a dunce emoticon on this forum?)

The Cram-Jazz Speedball seemed a little wonky, but I couldn't find anything saying it can't be done. It has some serious drawbacks, like addiction. Oh, and the crash.

Now, what about the Increase Reflexes spell?

From what I can see, there's nothing in there limiting who you can cast it on. No mention of drug users not being able to benefit, for instance. (Obviously, the limits on the previously mentioned boosters would prevent stacking though.)

Since the rules for Improved Reflexes, Wired Reflexes, and Synaptic Booster specifically say it can't be combined, would you allow a character to gain the benefits of a better reflex boost? For example:
Joe (wired reflexes 1) has Increased Reflexes cast on him by his buddy Bob. Bob scores 4 hits on his casting test, which would give Joe 3 IPs instead of 2 IPs for the duration of the spell. Seem reasonable?


-paws
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Stahlseele
post Jun 11 2008, 08:26 PM
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yes, i think that's actually how it works . . it does not STACK . . the better one just overrides anything else . .
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WeaverMount
post Jun 11 2008, 08:39 PM
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well in that specific case you could side-step the issue by turning off the implant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: do people you can combine IP boosters with Reaction Enhancers? They only indirectly effect initiative
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Daier Mune
post Jun 11 2008, 09:08 PM
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i had always thought that you could, but someone said something recently that reaction enhancers wouldn't work with other cyber/bioware. i don't see why they wouldn't.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 11 2008, 09:20 PM
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another thing they changed from SR3 to 4 for whatever reason . . back then, drugs were compatible with everything, reaction enhacners were compatible with everything too . .
of course, by then reaction was a special attribute and not a physical one too . .
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Jackstand
post Jun 11 2008, 09:21 PM
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They worked with wired in third edition, but, in the FAQ for fourth, it says that they don't anymore. If I was to change any one ruling about initiative modifiers, that'd be it.
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Mordinvan
post Jun 11 2008, 10:04 PM
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wired reflexes and move by wire have terrible fluff descriptions which really need to get reworded so the system would actually do something productive. Move by wire induces a continous seizure and can't be turned off. This would give you a lifespan of less then 3 hours. Wired's isn't as bad, but its not much better either.
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Jackstand
post Jun 11 2008, 11:52 PM
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I'm on board with the inability to dectivate and drastically reduced life-span for MWB. Maybe more than three hours, but probably less than five years.
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Mordinvan
post Jun 12 2008, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (Jackstand @ Jun 11 2008, 05:52 PM) *
I'm on board with the inability to dectivate and drastically reduced life-span for MWB. Maybe more than three hours, but probably less than five years.


Most people don't last much longer then 15 minutes with their body in that state. All the muscle spasms almost completely consume all the oxygen they're breathing, then when anaerobic respiration sets in, the muscles make acid as a byproduct untill they can no longer move. This would include the ones you use to breath...... Get the idea?
Plus lets not talk about all the waste heat being generated, and therefore cooking the subject in their own juices.
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Glyph
post Jun 12 2008, 03:13 AM
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Move-by-wire works by keeping a subject in a continuous state of seizure, but suppressing it, then channeling it along the desired path of motion when someone wants to move. It used to be extremely debilitating (and also gave much more powerful in-game effects), but the only problem it seems to cause now is small muscle tremors when the subject is at rest. Apparently they have been refining it.

Also note that move-by-wire specifically allows reaction enhancers to stack with it. The FAQ disallows it with wired reflexes, but remember that the FAQ is not as "official" as an actual errata, and has been wrong before. It is not completely clear whether reaction enhancers stack with synaptic boosters or not - a lot of it depends on whether reaction enhancers count as an "initiative enhancement" or not. Technically, improving Reaction improves initiative, but the reference to not stacking with other initiative enhancement might be referring only to actual IP boosters.
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Daier Mune
post Jun 12 2008, 05:21 AM
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yes, its always helpfull when designing a game to call two related functions by the same terminology. it really helps to inform the players and clarify your ideas. see: skill modifiers and dice pool modifiers, initiative score and initative passes.
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tsuyoshikentsu
post Jun 12 2008, 05:46 AM
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While drugs and magic stack, remember that addiction can affect Essence.
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AngelisStorm
post Jun 12 2008, 05:56 AM
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While it's only a house rule, I normally allow drugs to stack with just about everthing. I think that a Street Sam, who pops combat drugs should be faster than the dude who is (only) using Wired Reflexes.

(Plus I would love to see a player pop Kamakazi while having seizures, even supressed ones. What, didn't you read the drug interactions matrix forum before taking those?)

Also I think it says that Reaction Enhancers specifically don't stack with Wired Reflexes. But elsewhere they specifically DO stack with Move by Wire. Which is stupid, so I let Reaction Enhancers stack with other tech enhancers. (I just don't let IP enhancers stack, drugs and edge aside.)
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Ryu
post Jun 12 2008, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jun 12 2008, 04:40 AM) *
Most people don't last much longer then 15 minutes with their body in that state. All the muscle spasms almost completely consume all the oxygen they're breathing, then when anaerobic respiration sets in, the muscles make acid as a byproduct untill they can no longer move. This would include the ones you use to breath...... Get the idea?
Plus lets not talk about all the waste heat being generated, and therefore cooking the subject in their own juices.


Try to imagine not a full seizure, but a slight increase of tonus in antagonist pairs of muscle. Still wasting energy and oxygen, but not as much. Plus the energy systems will adapt to the constant but low load. Now if you want to move, you release the antagonists while contracting the required muscles further. This should give a slight but measureable speed advantage.
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Mordinvan
post Jun 12 2008, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Jun 12 2008, 04:22 AM) *
Try to imagine not a full seizure, but a slight increase of tonus in antagonist pairs of muscle. Still wasting energy and oxygen, but not as much. Plus the energy systems will adapt to the constant but low load. Now if you want to move, you release the antagonists while contracting the required muscles further. This should give a slight but measureable speed advantage.


I'd just rewrite the description to state the 'computer' is linked directly into the cerebulum, possibly even replacing it as a result of a 6 month process of gradual incursions by nanite builiding a self programing computer as they move into the area.

The description for boosted reflexes works fine for me.

Wired reflexes should be in my oppinion closer in description to reaction enhances, except in the peripheral nervous system instead of the spine, and move by wire should be as mentioned above.

As these make slightly more sense to me.
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