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> Armor + AP Stacking
AngelisStorm
post Jun 12 2008, 07:06 AM
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So has there been a final consensus on whether AP from weapons and ammo is cumulative, or does the ammo's AP replace that of the weapon?

I believe it's cumulative, but I thought I read somewhere on the boards that it doesn't work that way with flechette?

And armor stacking:

1. How does the SecureTech PPP System armor work? (What, precisely, can it actually be worn with?)

2. Since you can't wear the famous Shadowrun armored underwear with Military Grade armor, wouldn't you actually gain a several point Ballistic armor bonus by wearing full form-fitting body armor and either security or swat armor?

Thanks.
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Shiloh
post Jun 12 2008, 07:35 AM
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QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jun 12 2008, 08:06 AM) *
So has there been a final consensus on whether AP from weapons and ammo is cumulative, or does the ammo's AP replace that of the weapon?

I believe it's cumulative, but I thought I read somewhere on the boards that it doesn't work that way with flechette?


It's cumulative.

QUOTE
And armor stacking:

1. How does the SecureTech PPP System armor work? (What, precisely, can it actually be worn with?)

It can be worn with anything. It adds its ratings.
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Glyph
post Jun 12 2008, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jun 12 2008, 12:06 AM) *
So has there been a final consensus on whether AP from weapons and ammo is cumulative, or does the ammo's AP replace that of the weapon?

I believe it's cumulative, but I thought I read somewhere on the boards that it doesn't work that way with flechette?


Pg. 312. "The ammunition's Damage Modifier and AP Modifier are added to the weapon's usual DV and AP."

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jun 12 2008, 12:06 AM) *
And armor stacking:

1. How does the SecureTech PPP System armor work? (What, precisely, can it actually be worn with?)


It is available in three varieties, one of which is "discreet protection", so it would be usable with most other armor, with the main limitation being encumbrance.

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jun 12 2008, 12:06 AM) *
2. Since you can't wear the famous Shadowrun armored underwear with Military Grade armor, wouldn't you actually gain a several point Ballistic armor bonus by wearing full form-fitting body armor and either security or swat armor?


Technically, yes, but you wouldn't have the higher capacity rating or the enhancements specifically available for military-grade armor, and even with the form-fitting armor's reduced encumbrance rating, that's still quite a few points of armor - you would almost have to be an ork or troll to wear such a combo.
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Daier Mune
post Jun 12 2008, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 12 2008, 02:48 AM) *
Pg. 312. "The ammunition's Damage Modifier and AP Modifier are added to the weapon's usual DV and AP."


unless you're dealing with shotguns, then the new AP modifier replaces the old one, for some reason.
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paws2sky
post Jun 12 2008, 02:17 PM
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That seems to be the case with just about anything firing flechette rounds, if the tables in the 5th printing BBB are to be believed.

*shrug*

Just so long as my Warhawk with APDS stays 6P/-6, I'm cool with it.

-paws
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Eryk the Red
post Jun 12 2008, 04:16 PM
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I assume that any of the weapons designed explicitly to fire flechettes (including shotguns) are simply better at it, and that's why they have better AP than similar weapons (that are not explicitly designed for flechette) loaded with flechettes. That's why those weapons merit having a statline specifically to reflect their flechette damage ratings.

It's a vague enough reason to work for me.
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Jackstand
post Jun 12 2008, 04:19 PM
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I think that they just forgot to update it in the tables for the weapons, myself.
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reepneep
post Jun 12 2008, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (Eryk the Red @ Jun 12 2008, 10:16 AM) *
I assume that any of the weapons designed explicitly to fire flechettes (including shotguns) are simply better at it, and that's why they have better AP than similar weapons (that are not explicitly designed for flechette) loaded with flechettes. That's why those weapons merit having a statline specifically to reflect their flechette damage ratings.

It's a vague enough reason to work for me.


The Mossberg CMDT kinda punches (a lot of tiny) holes in that theory. I think I'm with Jack on this one.
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paws2sky
post Jun 12 2008, 05:24 PM
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They did update the tables in the latest printing. From +2 AP to +5 AP on flechette weapons. That doesn't explain why a weapon that starts with -1 AP (like most shotguns) goes up to +5 AP when you put flechette in it. If the AP mods are added together, as the rules suggest, those weapons should it should be +4 AP.

Yet, according to the tables, weapons listed with flechettes as an option and that have -1 or better AP are less effective firing flechettes than other weapons with an equal AP value.

-paws
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AngelisStorm
post Jun 13 2008, 11:33 PM
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That was kinda my problem Paws, and I was wondering if it had been addressed yet. Apparently the answer is no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) (It makes me sad that it seems like Shotguns get no love. Damage like a hunting rifle, but with worse range, "special" ammo that mostly any gun can use, double recoil penalties, and spread rules that are almost useless.)

Ok, so the SecureTech PPP System can be work with any armor? If wearing an armored jacket, you can still wear arm guards? When wearing full security armor, you can still wear shin guards? (The reason I'm confused with this armor is that either you can do the aforementioned things, which is kinda wierd, or suddenly high rating, low coverage armor like the armored jacket, become really butch.)

And if you can wear it with any armor, could you then wear the armored underwear, strap on the SecureTech stuff, and then put on your normal armor? (Encumberance aside. Getting visions of that shootout years back between the cops and the two guys in full body armor.)
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reepneep
post Jun 14 2008, 04:18 AM
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QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jun 13 2008, 06:33 PM) *
That was kinda my problem Paws, and I was wondering if it had been addressed yet. Apparently the answer is no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) (It makes me sad that it seems like Shotguns get no love. Damage like a hunting rifle, but with worse range, "special" ammo that mostly any gun can use, double recoil penalties, and spread rules that are almost useless.)

I feel your pain, my brother. Based on RAW, the only real reason to pick a shotgun is style. I've got a house rule that helps with this so pm me if you're curious.

QUOTE
Ok, so the SecureTech PPP System can be work with any armor? If wearing an armored jacket, you can still wear arm guards? When wearing full security armor, you can still wear shin guards? (The reason I'm confused with this armor is that either you can do the aforementioned things, which is kinda wierd, or suddenly high rating, low coverage armor like the armored jacket, become really butch.)

And if you can wear it with any armor, could you then wear the armored underwear, strap on the SecureTech stuff, and then put on your normal armor? (Encumberance aside. Getting visions of that shootout years back between the cops and the two guys in full body armor.)

Silly no? You can even wear 16B/14I armor around in public with no one being the wiser by combining PPP, Bone Lacing, an armor vest, FFBA and gel packs. You could add synthetic cyberlimbs with extra armor in there if you wanted. With that much armor, you would need to be hit by APDS or Assault Cannon class weapons to take physical damage and an ork can do it without encumberance. Hmmm... I think I'll have to use this idea...
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AngelisStorm
post Jun 14 2008, 08:59 AM
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(Like many people I'm sure) I'm working on a houserule shotgun fix. (And there is a reason to use a shotgun besides style: on the wider spreads can't it hit multiple people? In our games goons run through doorways alot.)

Currently I'm toying with doing away with the double recoil (no reason for it), and reducing the damage for wider spreads, but no armor bonus. (I think this will work better than giving extra armor dice, since this would fix the "2/2 leather jacket with 12 soak dice". Also intuitively it feels better, since less shot hitting you = less damage.)

What I really want to do is tweak the damage and AP on shotguns to represent slugs, but I'm not sure what angle to take it. A slug does terrible damage, but doesn't penetrate. (Hitting someone in body armor with a slug = really bad day for the guy, because he will have many broken ribs.)

I was thinking about giving shotguns +1 damage, and +2 AP (making them +1 AP overall) or so. But I really don't know, both from a mathematical standpoint, and because anymore damage would put shotguns on par with sniper rifles (which are presumably the big calibers, since they do more damage than hunting rifles).

I don't know... a bonus towards knockdown? Adding to AP, but making a min. amount of stun unsoakable? Make them same damage, 0 or +1 AP, but bonus damage if the round is converted to stun? I really don't know, because I don't want to add any more wierd rules to shotguns, thus making them even harder to understand/use.

Whatever happens, I think it might end up that shotguns don't "have" "normal" ammunition. They will have to use either flachette or slugs, and both will have their own ammo entry.

/end shotgun rant

P.S. Maybe I'll just make all shotguns use either flachette or "hollow point" rounds, and call them slugs.
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