[X] My Assistant

[the_dunner]

Non-invasive prenatal screening can demonstrate the difference between a human and an elf or dwarf.

An Ultrasound would readily detect elf or dwarf anatomy. However, looking at a karyotype produced by amniocentesis certainly wouldn't.

Prenatal screening can catch many but not all of the potential goblinization candidates. There are known combinations, so they can look at a genetic test and say with certainty that it will goblinize into a troll.

You've phrased that very carefully. I'd still disagree with your conclusion though. You're inferring that *most* of the metagenes associated with goblinization have been identified. I don't believe that to be the case. You're also inferring that some threshold combinations are known. I'd posit that a very small subset of the metagenes required are known. I'd also posit that very few if any of those threshold combinations have been identified. With the penetrance issues that are involved, I don't believe that there's any way a genetic screen for goblinization could have clinically acceptable levels of accuracy.

Not if you don't know all the genes to test for and not if a baby with some of the genes can still be human.

Exactly.

To know whats actually going on we'd have to ask the dev who wrote the section what the intent was. But until told otherwise by the guy who wrote it I'll side with Frank on this one.

I'd prefer not to use that as the criteria. However, if that were the case, then, I'd have to say, "You've been told otherwise by the guy who wrote it."

I guess we'll have to stop testing for Cystic Fibrosis, because we can't do it.

Interesting choice there, since that disease is the one on which most of my research is focused. CF is a single gene disorder with multigenic associations. We can positively test for whether a patient will have CF due entirely to the fact that we've characterized the key gene. However, based upon that single genotype, we absolutely can NOT determine the severity of the disease. And really, a CF patient with a mild phenotype can live with minor symptoms for many times the life expectancy of a patient with a severe disease. It's those other subtle variants that really dictate the disease course.

Goblinization is nothing like that. It's not a single gene syndrome. Rather, it's an entirely multigenic trait, where an enormous number of variants plus astral shadows - which require the mapping skills of an Awakened with savvy in molecular genetics - come into play. A few of the modifier genes have been identified, but certainly not a majority.

[FrankTrollman]

An Ultrasound would readily detect elf or dwarf anatomy. However, looking at a karyotype produced by amniocentesis certainly wouldn't.

Elves and Dwarves are different at the protein level not just in proportions. An amnio should detect such anomalies easily.

Interesting choice there, since that disease is the one on which most of my research is focused. CF is a single gene disorder with multigenic associations. We can positively test for whether a patient will have CF due entirely to the fact that we've characterized the key gene. However, based upon that single genotype, we absolutely can NOT determine the severity of the disease. And really, a CF patient with a mild phenotype can live with minor symptoms for many times the life expectancy of a patient with a severe disease. It's those other subtle variants that really dictate the disease course.

I chose CF because it is possible to get a blocked pathway from the mother's side and a blocked pathway from the father's side and have a complete pathway between them because the pathways are blocked at different points. That is, with the right complementary genes you can actually be double positive for Cystic Fibrosis and still be "healthy." That meets Method's dubious criteria for something that we "can't test for." Does it meet yours?

-Frank

[Method]

What you have described is allelic heterogeneity. CF is still a single gene mutation. What about locus heterogeneity? What about all the genes that aren't identified? What about epigenetic changes caused by ambient mana levels i.e. environmental factors?

I'd be more impressed if you could describe a prenatal test that accurately predicts adult height because thats a lot more relevant to the discussion. With height you are talking about a variety of genes on different chromosomes with variable expressivity and penetrance which are subject to imprinting (epigenetic changes) and environmental factors (nutrition). So if its so simple, why can't we predict height? Now lets take it one step further: how many genes need to change for a troll to be 2.5 meters tall?

As far as science = opinion: I guess thats true if you have no faith in objectivity. I'm just not that cynical. But then again that makes all our arguments moot since the very existence of DNA is a matter of opinion. If all science is opinion then nobody is ever right about anything, and I guess nobody is ever wrong. What a wonderful world. And I just decided a baby's sex is determined by how much ice cream the mother eats while pregnant. Hows that for science?

[WearzManySkins]

Interesting discussion but then the Devs/Freelancers have demonstrated a broad lack of technical/scientific backgrounds in the devices/gear/plots/events they have published so far, I do not expect that trend to cease. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

It is a game not a RL Science/Technology based system, to me if they are able to create the various genewarez and biowarez the detection of a baby that will goblinize will be child's play with the level of the technology in 2070.

The Devs/Freelancers have deliberately kept things non specific in terms of science and technology in the areas their lack of background. Trying to derive specifics from such non specifics, is an exercise in Papal/Archbishop Canon debates on the number of Angels can Dance/Stand on a Head of Pin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Mordinvan]

I'd prefer not to use that as the criteria. However, if that were the case, then, I'd have to say, "You've been told otherwise by the guy who wrote it."

Ok. I'd just like to how how when we can will likely be able to sequence a genome in 3 days for less then a thousand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
(as of ~ 2012) it would still be possible some corp wouldn't have sunk 2 billion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to sequence 1,000,000 metahuman genomes of each sex to see which genes turn on during goblization in say... 1/4 of a million of each sex of each meta, and had computers which would make 'Gene Blue' cry run a comparison against genomes of humans who aren't meta and lived in mana similar environments to the test subjects? Cause holding patents on those genes would be priceless and the idea that a corp hasn't done this to allow for meta selection of offspring is... well surprising, as the return on investment would be well worth it.

[the_dunner]

Ok. I'd just like to how how when we can will likely be able to sequence a genome in 3 days for less then a thousand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
(as of ~ 2012) it would still be possible some corp wouldn't have sunk 2 billion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to sequence 1,000,000 metahuman genomes of each sex to see which genes turn on during goblization in say... 1/4 of a million of each sex of each meta, and had computers which would make 'Gene Blue' cry run a comparison against genomes of humans who aren't meta and lived in mana similar environments to the test subjects? Cause holding patents on those genes would be priceless and the idea that a corp hasn't done this to allow for meta selection of offspring is... well surprising, as the return on investment would be well worth it.

Because you can't perform electronic analysis of either metagenes or magigenes. In order to identify these genes, you need to astrally perceive a living tissue, and look at the astral shadows of the DNA. (Presumably using a light microscope or a highly specialized spell.) Electronic devices can't "see" the shadows. In vitro PCR wouldn't replicate the shadows. (Just as, for example, it won't replicate methylation.)

Once you've managed to compile the data, the bioinformatics of it would be fairly trivial. However, compiling those data would be require an enormous number of man-hours from scientists who had the ability to astrally perceive and could somehow identify individual DNA base pairs. IMO, the fact that 41 metagenes have been identified over the course of the 60 years since the awakening is evidence of the enormity of the work that's been involved.

[FrankTrollman]

State of the Art 2063 made a much bolder case for genetic typing of metatypes. On pages 10 and 11 they dropped the idea that while all the genes weren't known, that they control genes were and had been for some time. When we made the section in Augmentation there was special discussion to retcon things into being less grasped than it was implied that they were in that earlier book.

-Frank

[Mordinvan]

Because you can't perform electronic analysis of either metagenes or magigenes. In order to identify these genes, you need to astrally perceive a living tissue, and look at the astral shadows of the DNA. (Presumably using a light microscope or a highly specialized spell.) Electronic devices can't "see" the shadows. In vitro PCR wouldn't replicate the shadows. (Just as, for example, it won't replicate methylation.)

Once you've managed to compile the data, the bioinformatics of it would be fairly trivial. However, compiling those data would be require an enormous number of man-hours from scientists who had the ability to astrally perceive and could somehow identify individual DNA base pairs. IMO, the fact that 41 metagenes have been identified over the course of the 60 years since the awakening is evidence of the enormity of the work that's been involved.

Ok, good answer. Next question, this would imply a absence of correlation between the actual chemical makeup of the genetic information ie, ACGTTTACTGA and whether or not a particular segment of DNA will produce the proper astral shadows in the right conditions correct?

[the_dunner]

Next question, this would imply a absence of correlation between the actual chemical makeup of the genetic information ie, ACGTTTACTGA and whether or not a particular segment of DNA will produce the proper astral shadows in the right conditions correct?

That's correct. Further, keep in mind even that in RL genetics, the actual order of the nitrogenous bases doesn't always dictate disease penetrance. (e.g. imprinting, histone acetylation, etc.)

[Mordinvan]

That's correct. Further, keep in mind even that in RL genetics, the actual order of the nitrogenous bases doesn't always dictate disease penetrance. (e.g. imprinting, histone acetylation, etc.)

I know which is why we're are developing advanced computers to model what is going on with molecule molecule interactions ie gene blue and its decendents, who by 2070 should have a perfect understanding of mundane genetics.

[hyzmarca]

There is also the fact that goblinization has an environmental component. Some people with the correct genes might never goblinize.

[CanRay]

As long as you stay in a Low Mana zone, yeah.

Otherwise, you have Officers that either might stay the same or change at a moment's notice just like the bad old days of the Years of Chaos.

[weblife]

Could make an interesting run.

Some high-ping corp family has identified certain genetic traits in their child, that could indicate potential goblinization.

As good human bigots, they decide this would be an unbearable shame (Probably Japanacorp), but at the same time, killing their own offspring would be bad press. So they set the child up in the proverbial magic tower of null-magic, using geomancy to divert as much magic influence as they can.

Naturally the competition doesn't know exactly whats going on. They just know there is a child locked up in a modern-day castle with huge magical rituals encirling it, enticing them irresistably to decide that whatever is inside would be more useful in their hands.

This is where the runners come in. Classic snatch job. If succesful, the runners have a child/teenager who has never been outside the compound and who might... at any point suitable for the GM... change into Ork, Troll or Drake manifestation at his leisure.

Now if its turning into Drake, then the recipient might be happy with their prize. If its an Ork or a Troll, they might not believe the runners have the right package. In both cases, all sorts of fun can ensue.

Does the family want the child back? - Does the child want to go back? - Will Johnson pay for "wrong" package?

[DireRadiant]

Time to start modifying the bioinfomatics software to include this astral shadows stuff...

[Apathy]

Would a series of "Detect Elf", "Detect Ork", "Detect[...X]" spells work on the fetus while it was still inside the womb? How developed would it have to be to get picked up by the spell?

[MaxHunter]

The moment I need a grad degree in genetics to read DS is coming close, I know it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)

Cheers,

Max

[Mordinvan]

The moment I need a grad degree in genetics to read DS is coming close, I know it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)

Cheers,

Max

Well you've got at least one undergrad in genetics here, and I'd guess at least a few others from the sounds of it.

[Mordinvan]

That's correct. Further, keep in mind even that in RL genetics, the actual order of the nitrogenous bases doesn't always dictate disease penetrance. (e.g. imprinting, histone acetylation, etc.)

If being a orc for example is genetic + magic = win
Then what component of the genes is it?
Is it certain conformational folds the DNA takes which causes the right lense for mana to cast the astral shadows with?
Does the DNA have to have X proteins bound in Y spot to cause Z shape?
Because if there is mundane chemistry involved at all in the genetics of meta humans, then by 2070 we will have computers which can calculate it all, and tell you who has the potential to goblinize.

If however its the same handwaving they give to why you can't do spectroscopy on oricalcium then I got nothing.

P.S. I like option 1 better cause I can kinda at least sorta understand it. Option 2 seems like the easy way out.

[tech2.0]

The moment I need a grad degree in genetics to read DS is coming close, I know it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)

Cheers,

Max

He who has stopped learning has stopped living. Said the spider to the fly.

[weblife]

Hehe, I often myself in situations where I can refer to some tidbit of info I learned here at DS... Draws some peculiar looks when you happen to know stuff about explosives, guns, genetics, burglary, conning and whatnot.

Real easy to sound seriously paranoid when you point out weaknesses in the defensive layout of someones workplace... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

DS seems to be my main source of news of wiz tech aswell. Go DS!

[Method]

I won't claim that genetics is my strongest subject - in fact I hate biochemistry in all its insidious forms. But after 2 bachelor's degrees, a masters and 2 years of medical school not understanding genetics is not an option... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/read.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[bishop186]

Chemistry is the bane of my existence.

[weblife]

Well, isn't that a universal truth? - Doesn't death in the end come down to chemical processes?

Of course you can go deeper, or higher to explain life, but isn't it all chemistry? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

Yeah the age old swindle. I hated math but loved biology so I made that my career. Then I realized:

Biology = Chemistry = Physics = Math

Doh!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[the_dunner]

If being a orc for example is genetic + magic = win
Then what component of the genes is it?

Keep in mind that if it hasn't appeared in a sanctioned publication it's not true. Also keep in mind that SR books are not meant to be medical texts, so in the interests of word count and approachability, they're not written like them.

There are two divergent theories associated with the DNA structures involved in metagenetics and magigenetics.

The first theory is that there is a third strand of the DNA helix which is entirely astral. That strand is what actually dictates metatype, magical ability, et al. In the presence of an adequate mana background count, this strand can be expressed. In its absence, it cannot. This theory obviously requires the presence of additional "proteins" and nuclear structures that exist only on the astral plane.

The second theory is that there are implicit features in an organism's aura that dictate the conformation of DNA tertiary structures allowing for expression of metagenes. In the presence of an adequate mana background count, these conformations are assumed. If the resultant tertiary structure allows for the expression of a gene, then it's expressed. In the absence of both the requisite mana background count and the resultant coding gene, they are not expressed.

It's possible that both of these theories are true, just that different metagenes are expressed through the two contrasting mechanisms. In the game world, there is ample evidence to support both of these. Of the identified metagenes, some were identified by techniques associated with each of these two theories.