SR4 and Firearms, Gun nut required plx. Options

[Baatorian]

Heya.

I'm trying to convert the firearm damage codes to a more realistic standard, basing everything off of calibre and so on. Now I can't just wander off to a firing range or the like, so I need some help here working out a few odds and sods.

Between myself and my host of army friends, we're relatively happy with the pistol and rifle calibre of weaponry, but we have no exprience with shotguns. Between common sense, old Cthuhlu damage codes and wikipedia I've made a start on it, but I have no idea how accurate or realistic any of the shotgun codes are.

Anyway, if someone with more knowledge than myself could take a look over the list below, I'd be grateful. If you have anything to say/add about any of the firearms, then feel free, general input is great anyway.

I'm not sure if any other mods I'm putting in to the system are important right now, as I hungover and not thinking on a bigger scale, so I'll just past them and see where we get.

Oh yeah and I haven't got to choke settings yet, but I'm working it out in my head.

Anyway, thanks for any help in advance.



Pistol - 9mm - 4P
Pistol - 10mm - 5P -1AP
Pistol - .357 - 7P -2AP
Pistol - .50 - 8P -4AP

SMG - 9mm - 4P
SMG - 10mm - 5P -1AP

Carbine - 5.56mm - 6P -5AP
Carbine - 7.62mm - 8P -6AP

AR - 5.56mm - 6P -5AP
AR - 7.62mm - 8P -6AP

Sport Rifle - 7.62mm - 8P -6AP
Sport Rifle - 12.7mm - 12P -8AP

Sniper Rifle - 5.56mm - 6P -5AP
Sniper Rifle - 7.62mm - 8P -6AP
Sniper Rifle - 12.7mm - 12P -8AP
Sniper Rifle - 14.5mm - 15P -12AP

LMG - 5.56mm - 6P -5AP
LMG - 7.62mm - 8P -6AP
MMG - 12.7mm - 12P -8AP
HMG - 14.5mm - 15P -12AP

Shotgun - 10 bore - 10P +4AP
Shotgun - 16 bore - 12P +6AP
Shotgun - 20 bore - 14P +8AP
Shotgun - 28 bore - 16P +12AP
Shotgun - Slug -

Shotgun Bore Range

Short : Standard
Medium : -2P, +3AP
Long : -4P, +6AP
Extreme : -6P, +9AP



- Baat

Edit : Just wanted to add. I know a lot of the codes for calibre are repeated all the way along, but a couple of members of our group have no knowledge of firearms at all, so it's for their convience.

[Malicant]

What is it with guys needing reality in a fantasy game? Most people asking for such rules have never even seen a gun IRL. But seeing you tables I take it you have helluva experience with fireamrs, so whatever.

Btw, you should add realistic rules for body armor, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Baatorian]

Hi and thanks for the helpful reply (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But yes, we're working on rules for body armours, but it's at an early stage yet and requires another trip to the pub at least.

If you're actually interested (I assume by your post, that you're not), then I'll post them once they're done.




- Baat

[Kerberos]

I know diddely squat about firearms, but some of the damage codes seem a bit extreme. I certainly wouldn't want to be hit by a heavy machine gun, but is it really an effectively 100% instant kill? I'll buy it for a sniper, because each round is saimed, but I'd expect a lot of glancing wounds from machine guns.

[Faelan]

The problem with accurately modeling firearms in Shadowrun is the inherent granularity of the game. SR1-SR3 were more capable of modeling firearms accurately due to the existence of floating target numbers adding an extra level of detail. If you want a greater ability to describe the effects of firearms (which I for one don't think is necessary), utilizing or rather injecting a floating target number in SR4 may be one potential way of doing it, utilizing thresholds for special effects, or going the route you have gone. In reality the difference in calibers are nowhere near as important as shot placement. I will kill someone as effectively with a .38 as I would with a 10mm, in the grand scheme of things the round is secondary to what you hit. The system as it stands offers some variation amongst firearms, but ultimately follows what I said. How well you hit, in other words the skills of the user are going to determine success far more than what gun you are using in a particular category. Other problems you will face is having to retool body armor, and beyond that accept a much higher level of character death based on what you have presented so far (even if you upgrade armor this problem will most likely remain).

[Fix-it]

^This^

.17 Hornet or .22 LR can kill you just as dead as .45 auto.

[hyzmarca]

So larger shotguns cause less damage but have substantially better armor penetration? That makes no sense on a variety of levels.

The biggest issue with those damage codes is that they totally screw up the armor system. You'd have to revise in armor ratings in light of them. They also create must-have weapons in all classes (except shotgun due to the AP silliness). No one is ever going to pick a pistol smaller than .50 and no one is ever going to pick a rifle smaller than 12.7mm

[Larme]

Heh, this is looking more like SR3, where big guns have a damage code of "good luck, chummer" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) My question is: are you making these rules just for realism's sake, or have you actually played and found that SR4 isn't deadly enough? Because if so, I think you might be doing it wrong.

[Daier Mune]

I certainly wouldn't want to be hit by a heavy machine gun, but is it really an effectively 100% instant kill? I'll buy it for a sniper, because each round is saimed, but I'd expect a lot of glancing wounds from machine guns.

no, as a matter of fact, you wouldn't want to be hit by a machinegun.

[Malicant]

Depends on who swings it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Baatorian]

I know diddely squat about firearms, but some of the damage codes seem a bit extreme. I certainly wouldn't want to be hit by a heavy machine gun, but is it really an effectively 100% instant kill? I'll buy it for a sniper, because each round is saimed, but I'd expect a lot of glancing wounds from machine guns.

A 14.5mm MMG doesn't need to literally hit you to kill you. A super sonic round of that calibre as a near miss could kill you. As far as I understand it (never used one).

Edit : To say, I didn't write up the higher calibre weapon damages.

So larger shotguns cause less damage but have substantially better armor penetration? That makes no sense on a variety of levels.

The biggest issue with those damage codes is that they totally screw up the armor system. You'd have to revise in armor ratings in light of them. They also create must-have weapons in all classes (except shotgun due to the AP silliness). No one is ever going to pick a pistol smaller than .50 and no one is ever going to pick a rifle smaller than 12.7mm

Well. The size of the bore is the number of balls within each shell. The more balls, the smaller they are. Thus a lesser amount of large balls would penetrate armour better, but do less overal damage to the victim. That's my understanding of how bore rounds work from wikipedia. Yet I have no real idea, thus asking for someone who knows what they're talking about to post.

The damage codes are otherwise fine - for my group - armour needs a slight adjustment, in terms of how it's penetrated, but nothing too major. Regardless, these are for my group and see below.

Heh, this is looking more like SR3, where big guns have a damage code of "good luck, chummer" nyahnyah.gif My question is: are you making these rules just for realism's sake, or have you actually played and found that SR4 isn't deadly enough? Because if so, I think you might be doing it wrong.

Yes. I'm half and half between SR3 and SR4 to be honest, as far as combat goes anyway. In SR3, we used Rayguns firearm rules, so no, it's not deadly nor realistic enough for us right now.



- Baat

[Faelan]

1) A round of any size and speed will not hurt you unless you are actually hit. The near miss myth is easily debunked by looking at the holes on a paper target at a range. The holes are exactly the size of the projectile, there is no shockwave. If there was the holes would be much larger.
2) A shotgun using buckshot does not have great penetration at all. Buckshot is used principally because it spreads, making it easier to hit, and because it creates a ton of small wounds in an unarmored target, which makes for a real big mess. Against an armored target use a slug or sabot round you will have a better chance of inflicting real damage.

And yes I do know what I am talking about.

[Baatorian]

2) A shotgun using buckshot does not have great penetration at all. Buckshot is used principally because it spreads, making it easier to hit, and because it creates a ton of small wounds in an unarmored target, which makes for a real big mess. Against an armored target use a slug or sabot round you will have a better chance of inflicting real damage.

And yes I do know what I am talking about.

Hence the + sign before the AP. That's not -AP. Great anyway, if you wouldn't mind, can you please then write up what you think shotguns should be slug/shot.



- Baat

[hyzmarca]

Well. The size of the bore is the number of balls within each shell. The more balls, the smaller they are. Thus a lesser amount of large balls would penetrate armour better, but do less overal damage to the victim. That's my understanding of how bore rounds work from wikipedia. Yet I have no real idea, thus asking for someone who knows what they're talking about to post.

So, you know absolutely nothing about shotguns and you couldn't be bothered to so much as check Wikipedia, am I understanding you correctly?

The gauge of a shotgun is not directly related to the number of pellets fired or the size of those pellets. Those are determined entirely by the shell, though the bore limits shell size.

The gauge (bore) of a shotgun is the multiplicative inverse of the weight in pounds of the largest lead sphere that the barrel can accommodate. A 10 gauge can accommodate a single 1/10 pound lead sphere, for example. The exception to this is .410, which is caliber measured in inches.

[Guardian]

I'm trying to convert the firearm damage codes to a more realistic standard, basing everything off of calibre and so on.

I'd recommend having each group of weapons use the same caliber: Light pistols are all 5.7mm or 9 mm, heavy are all .40 or .45, etc. It comes in handy when you have them doing the Resident Evil thing of scrounging ammo from the dead.

Sniper Rifle - 5.56mm - 6P -5AP
Sniper Rifle - 7.62mm - 8P -6AP
Sniper Rifle - 12.7mm - 12P -8AP
Sniper Rifle - 14.5mm - 15P -12AP

LMG - 5.56mm - 6P -5AP
LMG - 7.62mm - 8P -6AP
MMG - 12.7mm - 12P -8AP
HMG - 14.5mm - 15P -12AP

I'm not familiar with the 14.5. I'd say a 7.62 is a MMG and a 12.7 is a HMG.

Shotgun - 10 bore - 10P +4AP
Shotgun - 16 bore - 12P +6AP
Shotgun - 20 bore - 14P +8AP
Shotgun - 28 bore - 16P +12AP

I'd keep it simple, use 12, 20, and .410 gauge shotguns (in order of biggest to smallest), and have the biggest do the most damage. (Personally, I hate shotguns IRL and I would never use one.)

[Baatorian]

I'm not familiar with the 14.5. I'd say a 7.62 is a MMG and a 12.7 is a HMG.

I'd keep it simple, use 12, 20, and .410 gauge shotguns

Hey there and thanks.

7.62 is the standard eastern round. The AK-47, for example, uses the 7.62mm round. It's possible that some MMGs will use the 7.62mm however, so I will adjust that, but some will also be classified as "light" in SR.

I might well try for those simple shotgun ranges, I just read on Wiki that the ones I listed were the most popular, so I started there. My problem really is that I have no personal idea what kinda of damage the different bore shotguns do. What I originally wrote for them is pretty much complete guess work going on an exprience of nothing.

Thus need the help with the shotguns.

I mean, simple information would help. For example, at short ranges with a "normal" hit, will a 12 bore shotgun kill a man outright? What about a .410 bore then, etc etc.



- Baat

Edit : Oh. Forgot to add. 14.5mm is also known as .50, which you maybe more familiar with.

[psychophipps]

First off, if you really care about "Realism. Realism...the all-pervasive element in modern American cinematic vision..." then pistol and SMG rounds ARE NOT AP. I'm sorry, but low-velocity rounds like those from handguns work like driving a dowel through whatever they hit and this means that the big, fatter dowel hurts more. Bigger bullets and more energy means that it deals more damage to tissue but it's still not designed to actually penetrate armor through anything but brute force over a relatively wide area.

Second, nobody makes a 10mm SMG anymore. Heck, 10mm pistols aren't really made too much anymore.

Third, the 10mm cartridge is basically a .357 magnum power level cartridge firing a bigger, heavier bullet.

Fourth, the 5.7 x 28 FN and 4.6mm x 30mm H&K are basically AP 9mm energy level rounds. Not quite as nice as full-on APDS (which are only made for rifle calibers, btw) so I would put them at around Damage 4 AP -2.5 so round it off depending on how you feel about it.

Fifth, 00 buckshot has a per-pellet energy of a 9mm round. So while there is a fair-to-middlin' chance of multiple hits, the individual damages and ability to penetrate armor shouldn't really exceed that of a light pistol if you really want "realism".

Sixth, here's a version of the first chart as I would do it for ease of use:

Light Pistols (think .32 and .380 ACP) - 4P
Medium Pistols (think 9mm Luger and .45 ACP) - 5P
Heavy Pistols (think "Magnum" pistol calibers) - 6P
Light Rifles (think ARs) - 6P AP-1
Medium Rifles (think light sniper rifles, battle rifles and GPMGs) - 7P AP -2
Heavy Rifles (think Magnum rifle calibers) - 8P AP-2
Heavy Machineguns (.50 BMG, .51 Russian, and 14.5mm) - 9P AP-3
Light Cannon (ala Panther) - 10P AP-5

[Mäx]

Edit : Oh. Forgot to add. 14.5mm is also known as .50, which you maybe more familiar with.

The hell it is.

1.0 caliber = 1 inch = 25,4mm --> .50 = 12,7mm

[Baatorian]

First off, if you really care about "Realism. Realism...the all-pervasive element in modern American cinematic vision..." then pistol and SMG rounds ARE NOT AP. I'm sorry, but low-velocity rounds like those from handguns work like driving a dowel through whatever they hit and this means that the big, fatter dowel hurts more. Bigger bullets and more energy means that it deals more damage to tissue but it's still not designed to actually penetrate armor through anything but brute force over a relatively wide area.

Second, nobody makes a 10mm SMG anymore. Heck, 10mm pistols aren't really made too much anymore.

Third, the 10mm cartridge is basically a .357 magnum power level cartridge firing a bigger, heavier bullet.

Fourth, the 5.7 x 28 FN and 4.6mm x 30mm H&K are basically AP 9mm energy level rounds. Not quite as nice as full-on APDS (which are only made for rifle calibers, btw) so I would put them at around Damage 4 AP -2.5 so round it off depending on how you feel about it.

Fifth, 00 buckshot has a per-pellet energy of a 9mm round. So while there is a fair-to-middlin' chance of multiple hits, the individual damages and ability to penetrate armor shouldn't really exceed that of a light pistol if you really want "realism".

Sixth, here's a version of the first chart as I would do it for ease of use:

Light Pistols (think .32 and .380 ACP) - 4P
Medium Pistols (think 9mm Luger and .45 ACP) - 5P
Heavy Pistols (think "Magnum" pistol calibers) - 6P
Light Rifles (think ARs) - 6P AP-1
Medium Rifles (think light sniper rifles, battle rifles and GPMGs) - 7P AP -2
Heavy Rifles (think Magnum rifle calibers) - 8P AP-2
Heavy Machineguns (.50 BMG, .51 Russian, and 14.5mm) - 9P AP-3
Light Cannon (ala Panther) - 10P AP-5

Yeah. Realism ftw and all that. I dislike hollywood shoot outs and so does my group. Only heavy calibre pistol and SMG rounds are *slightly* armour piercing on my current charts, of course all weapons vary from others (take the Five-Seven for example). The armour modifications that we're making will solve much of that mess however, but taking the current physical->stun damage to other levels and cancelling most of any damage should the weapon calibre not be enough for the armour, such as Kevlar Type 3 (or whatever it's called these days).

10mm is the basic calibre we sorted decided the Ares Predator is, as it's a very large pistol (by looking at the artistic impression size). So 5P -1 is kinda standard there anyway.

Noted on 10mm SMGs. Although if you assume the Predator is 10mm, I'm sure Ares would have knocked a few more out. Not sure anyway, I will have a think about it.

Ammunition isn't something I've/we've touched on majorly yet, I've only just done the odd few changes, such as fletchette (+2P, +4AP).

00 buckshot. Okay, I have no idea what that means, as I said, I know absolutely nothing about shotguns or their ammunition, so you may need to enlighten here to be honest. Thing is though, if each pellet has the damage and penetration of a light pistol, then a 10 bore with 10 pellets would be doing absolutely insane damage, no? I mean, can you note give me a rough damage, as you'd see it? I have 10P +2AP for a 10 bore, too high? Too low? Because I really have no idea.

One last thing. Oddly enough, my first personal rewrite up (without outside help/influence) of the firearm changes is a lot closer to yours, believe it or not. The AP is all a lot higher mind.

Assault Rifle : 5P -5AP
Sport Rifle : 6P -3AP
LMG : 8P -6 AP
MMG : 9P -8 AP
HMG : 10P -10AP

The theory goes that... if a HMG will quite nicely go through the engine block of a humvee.. uh... body armour is going to do what exactly?

Anyway, thanks for the input, appreicated.



- Baat

[Malicant]

The theory goes that... if a HMG will quite nicely go through the engine block of a humvee.. uh... body armour is going to do what exactly?

Stop the bullet? Just a thought...

[HeavyMetalYeti]

The way I was taught is that the guage is equal to the number of lead ball the size of the inside of the barrel that equal one pound. ie. 10 balls the size of the barrel equal a 10 guage, 12 balls a 12 guage and so on, exept for the .410.

I have personally owned and hunted with a double barrel 10 gauge, pump 12 in 3 1/2 inch mag, 20 guage pump, .410 pump and several single shots ranging from 12 - .410.

The 10 guage came in a weight of 14 pounds and nearly 5 and half feet in length. Also the largest legal shotgun guage to hunt with in the USA.


My 12 guage which I still use, with 3 1/2 inch mag shells is nearly the equal to that old 10 but alot lighter and more mobile not to mention up to 5 rounds compared to 2.

As for the different sizes of pellets. In lead shot it goes 000 = triple ought buck, 00 = double ought buck, 0 = buckshot, then they start getting smaller. 1, 2, 4, 6, 7.5, 9, 12. The larger the number the smaller the shot. 12 is also called lead dust, great for blowing doors off their hinges but useless in combat farther than 7 - 10 yards. In steel and other non-lead shells, the 000 are replaced with TTT.

Standard RL combat loads are either 000 or 00 buck, slugs, sabot slugs or fletchetts. Their are also some exotic rounds out there.

Drangonsbreath is basically a shot shell loaded with black powder instead of lead shot creating a conical flame to shoot out the barrel for a few yards.

Bolo rounds are lead balls conected together with piano wire. As the shot passes through the air, the friction causes the wire to expand creating a deadly bolo. It will not catch someone running away from you, it will remove their legs, arms or head instead.

Shreader rounds are basically shells loaded with steel carpet tacks. Naisty on people and on the gun. Would not use any type of choke tube on this one.

[Isath]

Well... a bit to exessive I'd say. Shadowrun, as a RPG uses more or less abstract rules...and it is good that way. For the guns...I've seen a lot of (imaginary-) people being torn apart by guns in SR, I do not think they need more punch. Also a lot ist possible in matters of Body armor today... who knows what's up in 60 years. The same goes for guns but it seems the balance of it turns out to be...well just like the rules say it does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (at least in the SR setting).

[Guardian]

It's possible that some MMGs will use the 7.62mm...

*shrug* I know the M240 is a MMG that does.

My problem really is that I have no personal idea what kinda of damage the different bore shotguns do.... I mean, simple information would help. For example, at short ranges with a "normal" hit, will a 12 bore shotgun kill a man outright?

Probably. I've never hit anyone with it, but a 00 buckshot load for a 12 gauge is like 8 or 9 .38 caliber rounds -- they're going to have a bad day.

14.5mm is also known as .50, which you maybe more familiar with.

Hrm. The M2 machine gun we use at work is 12.7mm.

[psychophipps]

Standard RL combat loads are either 000 or 00 buck, slugs, sabot slugs or flechetts. Their are also some exotic rounds out there.

Drangonsbreath is basically a shot shell loaded with black powder instead of lead shot creating a conical flame to shoot out the barrel for a few yards.

Bolo rounds are lead balls conected together with piano wire. As the shot passes through the air, the friction causes the wire to expand creating a deadly bolo. It will not catch someone running away from you, it will remove their legs, arms or head instead.

Shredder rounds are basically shells loaded with steel carpet tacks. Nasty on people and on the gun. Would not use any type of choke tube on this one.

Flechettes were tested in Vietnam in shotguns and were found to be TEH SUXOR. No real knock-down power at all and the small holes would take a while to make them bleed out as they would largely self-seal due to their minuscule size. Flechettes worked great in cannon, just not smallarms. Why they made it back into SR is a complete mystery to me...

The most common combat load for the SEALs in The 'Nam was #4 buckshot (26 pellets per round) and a duckbill choke that turned the shot pattern from a circle to a horizontal oval. Their Ithaca shotties really tore the VC up, I hear.

Dragonsbreath also adds some white phosphorous and/or magnesium to the mix there. They're a great firestarter but ruin the barrels in fairly short order.

Bolo rounds are in interesting gimmick that some putz thought up but have the approximate real-world combat value of those little couch pillows your SO insists you have for looks despite you simply tossing them off whenever you take a nap. Sure, they might be useful for something but if faced with an enemy with an assault rifle coming around the corner, you will wish you had something better.

I see shredder rounds as I see flechette rounds. Yeah, they exist if you look hard enough. Sure, they will certainly kill someone if you hit them in an important spot. Do they really do it better than the old standbys? Not even a little bit.

[hyzmarca]

Probably. I've never hit anyone with it, but a 00 buckshot load for a 12 gauge is like 8 or 9 .38 caliber rounds -- they're going to have a bad day.

Winchester Super-X 12ga. 00 Buck shells apparently range from 9 pellets to 18 pellets. But, there is no such thing as a guaranteed 1-hit-kill weapon. It is always possible for the person shot to survive and it is even possible for a person to keep fighting. That's why, in a self-defense situation, you always keep shooting until the the target falls and stops moving, no matter what sort of weapon you are using.