2-Pistol Shooters, More lenient rules for them? Options

[mike_the_fish]

OK, so I admit - I think shooting with a pair of pistols is tre' cool. Love all those old westerns and Chow Yun Fat movies - just think it's a fun way to fight.

So I noticed that the rules for doing so in SR are pretty strict. Smartlinks don't work, you take a hefty target number penalty, the recoil stacks for each gun, and I am not sure, but don't you have to split up your skill dice between the two shots?

I guess my question is this: have you ever seen somebody fighting this way in any games that you run? Is it really worth doing? Or does the penalties you take make it prohibitive?

If it's yes on the latter, then I am thinking about making a house rule in my games. I am thinking of having the Smartgun Link bonus actually work. Or perhaps they work only partially, like perhaps the +2 bonus is split in half, a +1 for each gun.

This is not entirely without precedence. I remember a character in an old Shadowrun novel who used a pair of Savalette Guardians, and his Smartgun Link worked just fine with both of them. I remember that he had a PAIR of crosshairs superimposed on his vision, instead of the one crosshair normally seen. His "left hand" crosshair was a different color than his right hand one - that's how he told them apart. I know the novels aren't "canon" or anything, but still it makes sense to me *shrug*

I know that the rulebook version is probably more realistic. In the real life, it is rarely usefull to use 2 pistols. But then again, this ain't real life is it :cyber:

[Yum Donuts]

well, where to begin... first, smartlinks give a -2, not a +2 modifier. second, I have seen people play it ambidexteriously, and it is indeed powerful, thirdly, you do NOT want to make it any easier, and fourthly, it really is difficult to do.

ok, start with the last one. I want you to try having 2 friends throw something to you at the same time, and try to catch them both, one with each hand. that's hard. multiply that by 10, and you've got the dificulty of shooting with both pistols.

secondly, in shadowrun's system, with a good skill, the first shot can be an instant kill. so you're getting someone who can kill 4 people on one initiative pass. that's powerful. if you make that easier by giving them smartlink bonuses, it's even more difficult

also, keeping track of two targetting reticles is quite hard.

the only thing I would agree with is something that maybe made it a bit easier to unload with 2 pistols at one target, for example, a car coming straight at you, you should have a better shot of damaging it by just pointing and firing two guns than by only firing one, but that's just me.

Personally, I think the rules are just fine as they are.

[omie]

actually, according to the SR FAQ, novels can be considered canon with some "rule stretching." this may be a case-in-point of rule stretching.

i like the idea, though. and i agree that it shouldn't be easy. what about creating a new skill called "ambidextrous" or something that the player has to dump points into. maybe drop the smartlink ability and use the skill to add modifiers? and perhaps throw in some penalties and caps. we don't want him dual wielding shotguns and SMGs the way he would pistols, though =). so maybe add some constraints for that...or make it only apply to pistols.

[Glyph]

Cannon Companion already has rules for ambidexterity and off-hand skills.

[mike_the_fish]

[Yum Donuts]

pistols/savlet 5/7 plus enhanced articulation, and reflex recorder. now you're throwing 9 dice at TN 2 with a starting character. average 8 successes, with an 11M base weapon (ex explosive ammo) with their 5 balisitc, you're talking about needing 6 successes against TN 6 to bring the damage down to serious. most corp guards don't have a body of 6, much less are able to get 6 successes. throw in some combat pool, and it gets even worse.

but then, what do I know?

yes, the guards could be wearing more armor, but the player could have a custom made 10M base gun that uses burst fire, also.

[Bearclaw]

Phys-ad with Pistols 6 (12)
2 Ares Predators with GV1.
Ambidexterity.

All 4 shots are against a TN of 4. Meaning that, on average, without combat pool, you get 6 successes with a 9M wound, 4 times per initiative pass.
Exactly how much easier should it get?

[FlakJacket]

[Bearclaw]

[Yum Donuts]

and no, you don't have to split your dice between your guns

[Diesel]

You split dice...?

[FlakJacket]

Maybe in past systems, damn bloody memory, but not the current one AFAIK.

[Yum Donuts]

TN mods come from smartlink bonuses which he wants to aply to both weapons when dual wielding.
then again, there's always aptitude(pistols).
and now someone else will point out the "switching targets" modifier on the second shot that I forgot, so I'll beat them to the punch.
on the second target with each gun there will be a +2 modifier for switching targets, and that will make it a bit more difficult.

[FlakJacket]

[Bearclaw]

[FlakJacket]

Possibly. But if you're trying to argue a point with examples that aren't very realistic, you can expect that. :/

[Herald of Verjig...]

The multiple gun penalty could be defined as two parts: multiple targets and dual weaponry. The multiple targets would be nullified any time you are shooting both at one target and the dual weaponry would be countered by the off-hand weapon concept.

Make the multiple targets negate any sights or smartlinks, but let them apply when you are targetting two spots in the same direction.

Open to suggestions about how to divvy up the penalty to make this a somewhat balanced compromize.

[Bearclaw]

You haven't stated your opinion on the matter at all.
Do you feel that a two pistol shooter gets hosed? You can't just tell me I'm dumb without even offering an opinion.

[Raiko]

[Nonsensical]

[mike_the_fish]

That's what I had thought. Even with all that stuff, the gigantic target numbers will probably make the later shots fairly weak in the success department. Although I was mistaken on the whole splitting dice thing. May have to rethink.

[Crisp]

First let me just add that I like the idea of shooting two guns at the same time so I'll be biased in favor of people trying to do it.

Personally I would allow anyone with two Induction Pads and two Processors to get the full bonus to both guns. Some people will say that this would make gunbunnies (street sam or pistol adepts alike) too powerful (potentially killing four people every action pass, etc) but remember that the multiple target penalty is +2 for each additional target (regardless of which gun your shooting them with) so you might have a target number of 2 for that first hopeless sec-guard, assuming he doesn't take cover and there is good visibility, but it's TN 4 for the second one, TN 6 for the third and TN 8 for the fourth, not so easy anymore.

Now if you're shooting at just one target you do get to shoot four times at TN 2 but if your strreet sam with skill 7(9) needs to shoot him four times then the target is probably hardened or something and you'd be better off picking up an SMG or an assault shotgun with a lot of recoil compensation and letting off a few bursts, or possinly just running for dear life.

[Raiko]

[mfb]

people still use it, even though it is a bad choice using the current rules. they do it because they think it's cool, whatever the modifiers.

[BumsofTacoma]

dont forget a +2 for aditional targets. it does stack up.

so if you shoot at 4 people it goes 4,6,8,10.

if you power game make it easier, not just for pc's but npc's.

now dual gyromounts on a troll with 2 smgs....

:eek: ack i'll shutup now