Unwired Questions, Now with Merge-y Goodness Options

[NockerGeek]

You're assuming that there's a perfect copy protection. Otherwise the degrading rules would depend on how successfull someone was hacking the software, but it isn't. So it CAN NOT depend on copy protection. Simple, isn't it? You're idea can also not work, because people would simply start cracking the software again as soon as the message keeps appearing. And as there's no rule in the rulebook that prevents them from beeing successfull here, this can't be the reason for degrading.

So, your explanation has flaws and doesn't even explain the rules, sorry.

Reading is fundamental!

Meanwhile, some script kiddies are disseminating a worm that exploits a security hole that was found after you stopped patching, so your 'soft is dealing with that, too. Sure, you've got a firewall, but it's using up more processing power as it tries to fight off various bits of malicious code.

Of course, if you'd just stayed legit and not cracked, you'd be getting security patches, and legit key codes that only update monthly. But hey, you saved some money by cracking, right?

So the degradation isn't just due to the issue with the incomplete copy protection, but also due to all the malicious code that's zipping around (think about the recent Adobe Flash 9 player which had an exploitable weakness and required a fresh download from Adobe to fix it, or all the people who don't bother running Windows Update and getting their boxes turned into zombies).

And you're right, there's no "perfect" copy protection, but considering that copy protection cracks are generally reverse-engineered, it makes sense that the flaw in the crack wouldn't be found until things started getting wonky after a month - oh, look, time to repatch your cracked software. You're still going to be patching regularly as new exploits come out; the planned obsolescence isn't the only problem you have, remember. Also, who says it's not the corp itself releasing the 'soft-targeting worms to the public to encourage people to go legit? Remember, never doubt the deviousness of a Grim, Dystopic Megacorp ™ with a lot of money and manpower available.

[Tycho]

Why would a corp do that? Running background checks costs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . They have your money from the initial transaction. Customer support is apparently free in this brave new wireless world, so why charge for them. Check to make sure the software license is valid, sure. But running a background check to make sure your customer is still legit? How does that help profits?
Also consider outfits like HackerHouse. Would THEY be sticklers about proper SIN and licenses? I doubt it. They might run a rating 1-2 SIN check to make sure they get paid, but beyond that they would be unlikely to shut you down unless a Corp Court order or someone with big guns or teeth (Sader-Krupp) told them to.

They do that because the book says so:

If bought during the game with a commlink that is linked to a forged ID, gamemasters may call for an ID check (p. 260, SR4) with a verification system rating of 2–4.

with a SIN Rating 1 you likely fail that test.

cya
Tycho

[WeaverMount]

No, I'm assuming that the coders are good enough to put in two layers of copy protection - a first layer that's difficult but not impossible to break. which would trick most crackers into thinking they'd succeeded (after all, it seems like it's working through the first month), and a second, obfuscated layer that doesn't even look like copy protection. After all, short of a lucky break with paydata, it's not like the hacker's going to magically have the source code available - even decompiled code is ugly and obfuscated compared to the original, commented code - so there's little chance of them even knowing about the piggyback packet that rides on board the patch response.

Basically, it's the corp saying, "We know people are going to try to crack our software, so let's trick them into thinking that they've succeeded."

This whole scheme is non-sense. First off if degradation was by design, a couple dozen shadow coders would just re-write every app. You can talk to me about hidden protocol and what not, but per the BBB you can write your own apps ... so you can.

Also (and this really gets me) you can just come up with a cleaver idea and all it fool proof. Yeah in real life frequency hopping pretty much shuts down getting on the enemy's tac channel. A player can't just declare they are using that technique and get immunity. This is basically what you are trying to do here with the corps. You came up with a cleaver idea for some second-layer protection that didn't revolve around dice and declare it un-beatable. That just wouldn't be the case. Besides all you would have to do is reinstall. Storage space is unlimited. You could keep a back your everything and just reinstall all the time. I actually assume it's pretty standard practice for a hacker to reformat, re-install everything from a ghost image, and spoof a new ID every after every run. Especially because it only costs a 100 for the meta-link to do it.

[Irian]

Reading is fundamental!

I just didn't comment the other part, because that part is ok. I didn't say, that software doesn't degrade. For example, attack programs should become less and less usefull, because the other side will try to make their defensive programs better in protecting against the attack programs - but of course, it also works the other way, defensive programms will become less and less usefull because new attack routines will be able to bypass them.

But I don't think that this "secret 2nd copy protection" thing has anything to do with it. I think this idea is nonsense. Perhaps it happens once to a hacker, but that's the same thing as when the Samurai gets a defective ammo round. It can happen, but I wouldn't make a rule out of it.

with a SIN Rating 1 you likely fail that test.

Even a rating 6 SIN will fail this test very quickly, especially if this test is needed every month for each piece of software (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cheops]

Even a rating 6 SIN will fail this test very quickly, especially if this test is needed every month for each piece of software (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nowhere in the book does it say it checks every month. It checks when you register the program and that's it.

It also says that during the game if you purchase new software then you have to make that check. Not during char gen.

I will also point out that no where does it say that you can't add Registration by itself to illegally pirated copies and then go and register it with the company that made it. Sure, you'd have to hack the Patch Node to register yourself but they already suggested that for patch updates. So let's see, 10% of cost, 1500 for programming environment, Logic + Software (3, 1/2 month) test, and a hack.

[hobgoblin]

doing a quick numbers check, it will be most expensive to have ai/pilots and activesofts degrade. but even then, having some 5 rating 4 activesofts will only cost you 1500 a month to keep it going.

so yes, calculate, add to lifestyle cost and keep on running (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sombranox]

doing a quick numbers check, it will be most expensive to have ai/pilots and activesofts degrade. but even then, having some 5 rating 4 activesofts will only cost you 1500 a month to keep it going.

so yes, calculate, add to lifestyle cost and keep on running (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Don't forget to subtract the cost of their middle lifestyle as well since they should be able to make Hacking+Spoof(12,1day) extended tests each month with no problem.

So really, just calculate the cost and replace lifestyle cost with that.

[NockerGeek]

This whole scheme is non-sense. First off if degradation was by design, a couple dozen shadow coders would just re-write every app. You can talk to me about hidden protocol and what not, but per the BBB you can write your own apps ... so you can.

Yeah, you're right, you can roll your own apps - and those programs degrade too (UW, p.109). Even open-source software degrades (UW, p.110, sidebar).

Also (and this really gets me) you can just come up with a cleaver idea and all it fool proof. Yeah in real life frequency hopping pretty much shuts down getting on the enemy's tac channel. A player can't just declare they are using that technique and get immunity. This is basically what you are trying to do here with the corps. You came up with a cleaver idea for some second-layer protection that didn't revolve around dice and declare it un-beatable. That just wouldn't be the case. Besides all you would have to do is reinstall. Storage space is unlimited. You could keep a back your everything and just reinstall all the time. I actually assume it's pretty standard practice for a hacker to reformat, re-install everything from a ghost image, and spoof a new ID every after every run. Especially because it only costs a 100 for the meta-link to do it.

Sure, you can constantly be reloading your software onto a fresh install. Doesn't make it any less cracked or more up to date. It might get you past any layered copy protection issues that might exist, but it won't help with anything else.

Besides, I was merely giving one possible reason why somebody's active skillsofts might be degrading, something that is very possible as per the fluff, and that makes sense. I didn't declare it as some sort of unbeatable GM-fiat ruling; rather, I just described the way I picture, in my opinion, how a corp might go about developing its software. Is it the end-all be-all for software degradation? Not in the slightest. If anything, the constantly-evolving security holes are probably a bigger issue than the nagware/phone-home problem... but in any games that I run, both are going to be around as fluff explanations. In SR, the corps are greedy bastards, even more than today (a Grim Dystopic ™ future, remember?), so in my games, you can just about guarantee they're going to throw any possible trick at crackers to protect their income streams. Will it stop crackers in their tracks? No, but it does lead to a constant arms race between zero-day cracking teams and corp copy protection developers - just like we have today, only moreso.

My opinions, based on my experience and my interpretations, offered for others to read, nothing more.

[WearzManySkins]

The degrading software is making the ASSumption that the hacker/crackers have their thumbs up their arse and not disabling the degradation or writing warez without the degradation.

Again nice fluff attempts at explaining a bad idea.

WMS

[Irian]

Hm, no, I don't quite disagree with the idea of degrading in generell, but it doesn't make sense with every software. Two examples:

An "attack" program depends on how vulnerable the target is. If the attack programs tries to use "old" methods to harm the target, the defensive programs will be very effective. Let's say Johnny bought this new nova-hot piece of software which uses a totaly new way of signal manipulation to harm the target. Johnny will use it for, let's say two weeks - along with some other users - and then the coders who write defensive programs will notice that there's a new trick to harm someone. They will adapt and write patches for the defensive software that will make the new program less effective - it degrades. Same thing goes other way round: Defensive programs will become less and less effective (unless patched) because new attack programs are written - they degrade. Security holes get closed, new security holes found, etc.

On the other hand, a "Pistol" autosoft will perhaps have troubles with totaly new pistols, but it will still let you hit exactly as good in 10 years as it does now. Degrading here doesn't make sense, imho.

And of course I don't like the actual rule mechanism, because it's too much bookkeeping. I would probably rule that under "lifestyle" or charge a certain percentage.

[hobgoblin]

Don't forget to subtract the cost of their middle lifestyle as well since they should be able to make Hacking+Spoof(12,1day) extended tests each month with no problem.

So really, just calculate the cost and replace lifestyle cost with that.

hmm, indeed. spending 3 days on the spoof, then pay for the apps, and keep on running.

still, something like that should really be rolled. glitches and critical glitches could be oh so fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

nothing like having to run from the repo-troll (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Cheops]

The degrading software is making the ASSumption that the hacker/crackers have their thumbs up their arse and not disabling the degradation or writing warez without the degradation.

Again nice fluff attempts at explaining a bad idea.

WMS

Except that no where in the book does it say that you can do that without adding Registration and registering with a Corp node.

Also, did anyone notice that you can now directly download activesofts from the net, and that you can share activesofts through a subscription link. Don't need to buy activesofts anymore, before every run have hacker create hidden account on Corp Death Strike Team node and download from there directly to the runners. As long as you aren't running the software too long (less than 6 combat turns - ie. less than any combat EVER in shadowrun) they probably wouldn't notice.

It also means that you can spend your BP on all the illegal combat type skills and have the whole team buy the other skills as a group legally. Stick them all on your Roving Hub and then people can run them as needed. Only problem is that you can't have 2 people use the same activesoft at the same time.

[hobgoblin]

On the other hand, a "Pistol" autosoft will perhaps have troubles with totaly new pistols, but it will still let you hit exactly as good in 10 years as it does now. Degrading here doesn't make sense, imho.

your looking at a expense of 180 pr 2 months (something i see now that i forgot about in my earlier activesoft calculation), or 90 a month to keep it up to date. and as its cracked, one can use it anywhere. and i dont think its so much about the guns as its interaction with other stuff. unless your willing to run that old pilot you may be looking at patches there that fixes something that will cause a glitch in the pistols autosoft. at that point i guess one can rule that the pistol autosoft will not degrade, but as the pilot is degrading, what then?

still, at this point i would probably drop a pile of sourcebooks at any players head. or in other words, it degrades, learn to live with it...

[crizh]

Roving Hub for the win btw.

Who makes this shit up?

An availability 6 drone that contains an availability 14 nexus?

Nice.

[hobgoblin]

for shits and giggles, put it in some drone blimp doing ads for shadowrunners the mmo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cheops]

for shits and giggles, put it in some drone blimp doing ads for shadowrunners the mmo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

LTA Mod only costs 1200 for the Roving Hub but it does reduce your Mod Slots to 3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Mäx]

And of course I don't like the actual rule mechanism, because it's too much bookkeeping. I would probably rule that under "lifestyle" or charge a certain percentage.

Where's the need for lot of bookkeeping, just calculate the monthly cost and add it to characters lifestyle

[Irian]

unless your willing to run that old pilot you may be looking at patches there that fixes something that will cause a glitch in the pistols autosoft. at that point i guess one can rule that the pistol autosoft will not degrade, but as the pilot is degrading, what then?

I don't see the connection between "patches correct bugs" and "without patches, all programs will become less effective". You can write Texts with Word 97, if you want to. It's not worse than when it was written. It stills works equally good. You can't open newer files, of course, but the function itself hasn't degraded.
Same thing with Pistol autosoft: Perhaps it can't connect to the newest smartlink after 10 years, but it will still hit the targets equally well. If the autosoft has a bug, it will have this bug now and in 10 years without patch. Bug the bug doesn't suddenly appear and make the shooting less effective - at least not always with every program (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This hasn't anything to do with patches or glitches. Of course a GM could start adding program bugs, but I don't see the need for a rule here.

[Muspellsheimr]

The program degradation rules, as written, make no sense at all. Your program does not degrade if it fails to receive regular patches - it remains the same. Degradation does make sense if explained by your programs going out of date, however. The problem with this is the 1-2 month time period is far to short for that explanation. I suspect that if we use the degradation rules at all, the increments will be 6 months. Know/Lingua softs may degrade at a very slow interval, but Activesofts should not at all (at least for physical/combat skills).

EDIT:
Also, it was said the next errata would be released shortly after Unwired, dealing primarily with changes relating to Unwired. When can we be expecting said errata?

[Prime Mover]

Feel out of loop here due to not having PDF yet. But 2070's tech and corporations involved would seem to make this possible. And that degradation is only affecting illegal copies correct? I see no reason not to create a mechanic to limit copied programs, sure other ways to do it, but degradation and rules (again havent seen em yet) behind them seem reasonable.


Edit: From the above post, new errata for BBB, wondering if will include analyze for sprites? Is this in 5th printing?

[Cheops]

I don't see the connection between "patches correct bugs" and "without patches, all programs will become less effective". You can write Texts with Word 97, if you want to. It's not worse than when it was written. It stills works equally good. You can't open newer files, of course, but the function itself hasn't degraded.
Same thing with Pistol autosoft: Perhaps it can't connect to the newest smartlink after 10 years, but it will still hit the targets equally well. If the autosoft has a bug, it will have this bug now and in 10 years without patch. Bug the bug doesn't suddenly appear and make the shooting less effective - at least not always with every program (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This hasn't anything to do with patches or glitches. Of course a GM could start adding program bugs, but I don't see the need for a rule here.

If it helps -- think of it this way. You don't actually KNOW how to fire that pistol. The Skillwires are TELLING your body what to do to fire that pistol. Your skillwires are a computer just like everything else and activeSOFTs are software just like everything else that runs on computers. If your software gets out of date then when the computer tells your body to fire the pistol the glitches in the software that weren't patched affect your aim. YOU ARE NOT firing a pistol. The only conscious part of it as far as you are concerned is deciding that you want to shoot something.

[Irian]

I prefer thinking this way: The rules aren't very good. We will probably house rule this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ok, in my actual group (which hasn't played in a while, unfortunatly) we don't even have a hacker, just an elf chick we rescued a while ago and can call if we need something done (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

But he got the cracked skillsoft for FREE from a buddy or for 10% OF COST!

So the Ares Alpha of the the Street Samurai should automagically degrade in Damage because he stole it from Ares, while the one Adept bought at Weapons World doesn't?

[Cheops]

So the Ares Alpha of the the Street Samurai should automagically degrade in Damage because he stole it from Ares, while the one Adept bought at Weapons World doesn't?

Apples vs. Oranges.

Equivalent would be if Sam bought Ares Alpha from a fixer who told him that the gun was used in a double homicide yesterday and the police are looking for it. He can give it to you at 10% of cost.

Hackers can also get their programs for free. It's called you hack the patch node and get free patches (same as a Street Sam robbing a Weapons World). It's IN THE ACTUAL BOOK.

Seriously is anyone actually reading this book?

[Fuchs]

It's still SOTA. SOTA rules aka upkeep are bad.