Unwired Questions, Now with Merge-y Goodness Options

[hobgoblin]

somehow i cant help wonder if people are making a mountain out of a molehill...

my solution, calculate the price of the rating app you use, calculate same price for one rating down (often a very small difference, unless you on the 3-4 line), subtract small number from large number. multiply result by 0.10. add that result to your lifestyle cost. be a happy hacker...

oh, and if your using multiple programs with the same cost forumas, just multiply that last result with the number of apps in use...

hell, if the hacker is any good, he can hack himself a comfortable lifestyle given a couple of days.

now thats a rule that makes one wonder why hackers run the shadows at all...

[Nightwalker450]

The hacking a lifestyle is questionable... At least I don't think it should be available for anything above Low Lifestyle.

[LabRat]

I think entropic = free in that description, perhaps a mistake.

It is a mistake that results from a previous version, when the free sprites were called entropic sprites and the entropic sprites were called wicked sprites. It changed and apparently I forgot to change that and it managed to sneak past Editing and Proofing. Damn!

[Nightwalker450]

It is a mistake that results from a previous version, when the free sprites were called entropic sprites and the entropic sprites were called wicked sprites. It changed and apparently I forgot to change that and it managed to sneak past Editing and Proofing. Damn!

Woot I got a typo! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hobgoblin]

well, anything above middle gets kinda complicated...

oh, and i see now that i missed the part of the hacker having to both roll and pay to get patches on the warez networks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

still, unless one wants to be a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) , its a perfect time to use the buy hits rule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

hmm, i cant see any treshold info for finding patches...

[LabRat]

Echos: Biowires. Emulation takes a skillsoft and then you threading test (still no action I assume), threshold of the rating. Then you can sustain it, or learn it as a complex form paying karma equal to rating. So this makes it easier for me to learn Pistols, then it does for me to learn a computer program. Since Rating 4 Pistols, is only 4 karma, and learning rating 4 Browse will take 11 karma. Can I emulate computer programs to save cost? Though I guess it has been said you can't thread a skillsoft to a higher rating. Biowires also apply the same limits as to the number of skillsofts you can run?

You can just emulate software that you can feed into a cybernetic skillsoft system. No computer programs.
As for the limits:

"In game terms, it operates with a rating equal to the submersion grade of the technomancer. In all other regards, it follows the basic rules for skillwire systems."

So yes, same limits.

[HentaiZonga]

Question on Nexi:

The rules on pg. 50 suggest a Nexus's Persona limit is (System x 3)

The gear list on pg. 198 list Persona limits of 10's and 30's.

Which is correct?

Bump?

[dionysus]

hmm, i cant see any treshold info for finding patches...

I was wondering the same thing; I think everyone's been assuming that it's the same threshold for the programs.

[Nightwalker450]

Finding and getting access to an appropriate network requires
an Extended Data Search + Browse (8, 1 day) Test. Once connected
to such a network, the character doesn’t need to find another one
unless the network gets shut down, or if it doesn’t have the program
she’s looking for (both at the gamemaster’s discretion).

First you find the Network, which lasts as long as the GM feels like it does, and has whatever he feels it should have.

To find a specific program on the
file sharing network, make an Extended Data Search +
Browse (Availability + Desired rating, 1 Combat Turn)
Test. Downloading the program to your commlink or
terminal costs 10 percent of the street price of the program
(see Program Costs and Availability, p. 228, SR4).
[...]
The cost for program patches and updates (which restore the degraded program to
its full rating) is 10 percent of the difference in street cost between the
program’s current (degraded) rating and its full rating.

Then you find the program (quick and easy), then you purchase it. Usually this search will be skipped, unless you are trying to find a program in the middle of the run.

[Ancient History]

The hacking a lifestyle is questionable... At least I don't think it should be available for anything above Low Lifestyle.

You'd really be amazed.

[CloisterCobra]

if you *don't* crack your programs, then it will probably be a threshold 0 extended data search test to find you. do i need to explain just how bad that is?

How many registered programs would you use on a node? If you have registered every program you own, how many would you actually have loaded?
1)Exploit (probably)
2)Stealth (Obviously)
3)Browse? It's probably better to just use the one that's running in the node for everyones use
4)Analyse (Probably)

If you get into cybercombat with registered programs you'd add your favourite attack program and defense program, but I have yet to see a non-contrived instance of cybercombat where the hacker wasn't already boned.

-3/4 to the threshold doesn't seem too bad to me.

also, iirc, pretty much as soon as you use your registered programs for anything illegal, you can no longer get the patches for them free of charge.

Renraku probably doesn't update Lonestar with the SINs of hackers who have made successful runs *all the time*, it's not in their corporate best-interest to let everybody know they were hacked. Oh, I'm sure they keep a list of the SINs and try to track you down that way, and they probably release a few if they are high-profile enough or need an example made, but unless you were big and flashy, you should still be able to get your updates.... unless you used a registered program on a run against the company that made it. If you're doing that sort of thing you probably have bigger problems anyway.

Cheers
CC

[Jaid]

i meant that in the sense that as soon as you use the program illegally, (which i assume means as soon as you use it outside of your account privileges, since i can't imagine how else the program could tell) you can no longer get the updates.

[Cthulhudreams]

Dude. Okay. Let's pretend he doesn't crack his programs. What happens? Oh, he doesn't have to deal with all the patching/degradation bullshit. Great! The hacker is now happy go lucky.

Sorry, cracking is not optional for your hacker. Due to the data trail rules, you instantly die if you don't crack all your programs.

You have to use those rules and you have no options re: avoiding them.

Sorry to break that to you!


Now can you stop complaining about rules lawyer wank? Thanks.

[TheGothfather]

Sorry, cracking is not optional for your hacker. Due to the data trail rules, you instantly die if you don't crack all your programs.

Uh, I GM my SR4 game. Nobody dies without my say so, so this is patently wrong.

You have to use those rules and you have no options re: avoiding them.

Sorry to break that to you!

I have to? Really? Are the GM police gonna show up at my house and beat me with wet noodles until I agree to use rules that make my game less fun? Didn't think so.

I have plenty of options. I could simply ignore them. I could straight up use them as a consequence for player action. I could use them as written. Which one, exactly do I have to do? Hmmm?

Now can you stop complaining about rules lawyer wank? Thanks.

I could, but I'm not going to. Any more than people are going to stop complaining about Agent Smith or Pornomancers. The rule in question is pretty clearly included for some "game balance" reason. I don't run balanced games. I'm more concerned with making an interesting story. So, yeah, I'm gonna complain about anything that sucks. So far, I've been really happy about SR4's direction. The degradation rule does nothing but make downtime - you know, the not-fun part of the game - even more not fun. I'm sure as fuck not going to include something in my game that sucks for no better reason than the fact that it's RAW. I'll throw it out, like I throw out any rule that doesn't serve to make the game fun.

[Cthulhudreams]

Mate, we are discussing SR4 with unwired, not SR4 with houserules and unwired.

Fundamentally, you've changed the rules so the problem that we are complaining about doesn't occur. Now thats probably not a bad fix, but its a bit weak to change the rules, then called me a wanker for complaining something you've removed.

Can you not see the problem? The thread is for talking about unwired RAW, not our favourite houserules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[TheGothfather]

Mate, we are discussing SR4 with unwired, not SR4 with houserules and unwired.

Fundamentally, you've changed the rules so the problem that we are complaining about doesn't occur. Now thats probably not a bad fix, but its a bit weak to change the rules, then called me a wanker for complaining something you've removed.

Can you not see the problem? The thread is for talking about unwired RAW, not our favourite houserules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I don't recall personally calling you a wanker. I said, in essence, that trying to justify unjustifiable rules is wankery. Big difference.

I also made the implicit claim that the rule is there for game balance, which I think is a lame reason to add a rule. I'm all for awesome stuff that adds to the game, which the vast majority of Unwired does. But, this rule represents, to me, a serious flaw in the underlying design philosophy of the ruleset. A rule like this rewards micromanagement and GM antagonism. All that they've added with this rule is unnecessary dice rolling, cash expenditure to stay as effective as you are now, and additional bookkeeping. Why? So that the GM doesn't completely fuck you. What does this do? It encourages the GM to completely fuck you for not micromanaging your cracked vs. legit programs. If you're going to add rules, it should add something to the game. This does not add to the game. So, yeah, I am talking about Unwired RAW, and what rules like this mean for the SR4 game as a whole.

You know what would have been awesome? If, instead of adding program degradation, they had included straight-up custom program creation rules. The program options are nice, but it would have been great to get guidelines on how to make non-broken custom programs. Sort of like the spell creation rules in Street Magic.

[Lebo77]

i meant that in the sense that as soon as you use the program illegally, (which i assume means as soon as you use it outside of your account privileges, since i can't imagine how else the program could tell) you can no longer get the updates.

Umm... only if you get caught. I also must ask, if you can hack out the copy protection, why cant you hack out the "leave fingerprints all pointing back at me all over the matrix" part of the code? I know the RAW do not contemplate such a thing, but it seems sensible.

[Dashifen]

Deep breaths people. We've been doing well since Unwired's release. Some of the posts above are borderline personal attacks. Let's remember that we're all here to have fun.

[Sombranox]

Topic change!!!

Silly question I just ran into in my first really close readthrough (as opposed to the four skim reads I've done before it):

Do artificial response decreases limit System and thereby program ratings? Specifically, the response halving (which it doesn't say to round up or down, but that's another issue) from geostationary satlinks and the effect of a response-targetted Nuke program.

Initially, it seems stupid to even ask, but we know from FAQ that response decrease from slowdown of running too many progs doesn't drop system to avoid the death spiral effect.

Nuke's description gives targets of Response or System/Pilot and only when you freeze up both do you lock someone up, which gives me the impression that reducing Response doesn't reduce System as well (otherwise why ever target System?)

Given those two things, I'm almost wondering if _any_ artificial response degradation can affect what programs you can run. It seems more like programs are tied to the response hardware, not the running processing power remaining. In other words, hacking through a geostationary satlink makes your initiative slower and makes you more prone to getting hit, but you can still run your stealth 6 program despite the lag.

Thoughts?

[Jaid]

Umm... only if you get caught. I also must ask, if you can hack out the copy protection, why cant you hack out the "leave fingerprints all pointing back at me all over the matrix" part of the code? I know the RAW do not contemplate such a thing, but it seems sensible.

you can hack that part out. it requires modifying the code, which requires that you crack the program... funny how cracked programs don't have that problem, isn't it?

[Cthulhudreams]

I said, in essence, that trying to justify unjustifiable rules is wankery. Big difference.

I also made the implicit claim that the rule is there for game balance, which I think is a lame reason to add a rule. I'm all for awesome stuff that adds to the game, which the vast majority of Unwired does.

Oh, lol, we are both complaining about the rules then. Good, I'm cool with that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I was getting tetchy because I don't think the 'GM fixes' it method of fixing the rules really flies conceptually, and thought you were advocating that as an excuse for bad rules, but I can see I got confused, and you where saying 'well this is terrible design, and in other news I am not going to use it' which is probably the only response.

So back the ragging on unwired then. I don't realistically think that any 'RAW' hacker can avoid cracking his entire program suite. Even 'browse' - what happens if he runs that while on a node he's hacked into? Or encrypt, or really anything. It just gives team evil to much of a lead back to you.

[Fuchs]

And I don't see a game balance reason either.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That's easy - it's: Let's nerf Hackers till they cry so Technomancers can feel better.

It just happens to be that every runner will suffer from this serious change.
And of course, the rules are missing a very improtant part: Legal software degrades as well if there is no possibility to access the Matrix.

[knasser]

And I don't see a game balance reason either.

I can see it being needed in some campaigns and I'd thought some sort of rules for degradation would be good, but I was mainly coming at it from a flavour angle - in the core rules there was no reason why a low-life hacker PC shouldn't just buy all useful programs at Rating 6 and have world class software. I have a couple of problems with it though. The first is the oft-repeated one about it not making sense for things like Autosofts to degrade. I agree with that, and it doesn't "balance" hackers as these things are usable by everyone. And it brings us on to the larger issue which is that I've not actually seen a "hacker" character in an actual game. Admittedly, I have only had one group and can only see the way we played, but I find Dashifen's earlier statement about hacker players normally just being hackers unlikely. I see Hacker-Faces, Hacker-Riggers, Hacker-Samurai,,, and additionally lots of other characters that only dabble in hacking. The attempt to balance "Hackers" is problematic as it kind of enforces a return to the old "classes" style of play by making it harder to be an effective hacker. I don't see that as a good thing.

Possibly some GM's were having problems with the Hacker player starting to pool money whilst the magician and the samurai were always short of cash, but I don't think it's a common issue and that this is the right fix if it is. For a start, magicians who use a lot of bound spirits and samurai who throw around rockets are incurring costs, these aren't compulsory drains necessary to fulfil their roles like the degradation is for hackers. These characters are getting something extra in return for the nuyen and could perfectly successfully play their roles without the expensive extras. Buying enough bullets for a run costs little and a mage can be happy just frying people with spells. The hacker is not gaining anything extra by paying out the cash, however. Possibly more important though, is the question of why a hacker is sitting their pooling money in the first place. It's not as if there isn't a lot of things to spend your money on. If a player is sitting there thinking there's nothing useful for my money because I'm a "Hacker" then the problem is their inability to think outside of their "class." They may have been playing a certain Other Game too long.

I'll be keeping degradation rules of some kind for those programs I think it's appropriate for (Attack, Stealth, etc.) but I'll probably lower the interval and I'll have a think about how I want to handle this. My interest isn't balancing the "Hacker" which is only a preconception of the player, not a character class. My interest is only in establishing realism in my setting. I also very much do not want to dissuade any character from dabbling in matrix operations if they want, any more than I wish to dissuade any character from buying a drone or a vehicle or a weapon focus or whatever. You pay your money, you get your toy. Any toy for anyone; players choice whether to create focused or unfocused characters as they wish.

K.

EDIT: I missed out Technomancers from my consideration above because I've banned them in my game. I don't know how much balancing Hackers need against TM's or whether or not financial penalties are a good way to do that.

[Fuchs]

One cna have the realism of programs getting less efficient as new IC is introduced by simply using it as a fluff part - aka "You spend some time getting your programs state of the art, Hacker X, until Mr. Johnson calls again."