Unwired Questions, Now with Merge-y Goodness Options

[Aaron]

It doesn't seem to tough to me. Just put an 'O' in the box for Matrix damage and an 'X' in the box for everything else. That's what I do when I have a magician that needs to track unhealable damage from drain.

Heck, with the size of the boxes on the character sheet, you could pretty much take notes on the source of each box of damage.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Why does Unwired talk about hacking cyber implants by DNI? DNI is the Direct Neural Interface - a man-machine interface like a manual switch, not a network interface.

Cyberware can be internally networked as per main book, of course.

[Tarantula]

Why does Unwired talk about hacking cyber implants by DNI? DNI is the Direct Neural Interface - a man-machine interface like a manual switch, not a network interface.

Cyberware can be internally networked as per main book, of course.

If you're talking about page 90, it says that one virus/worm can infect all DNI devices once it affects one, since they're all linked via DNI (such as, your datajack, cyberarms, and an internal air tank) if they infect your datajack, then the virus can spread pretty easy to all those other devices.

If you're talking about something else, be more descriptive, give a page reference/quote.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If you're talking about page 90, it says that one virus/worm can infect all DNI devices once it affects one, since they're all linked via DNI (such as, your datajack, cyberarms, and an internal air tank) if they infect your datajack, then the virus can spread pretty easy to all those other devices.

Indeed. The crunch is on p. 102 of Unwired, refering to p. 31 of Augmentation.

DNI is described in both the main book and Augmentation as a connection to the nervous system, allowing the use of an implant like a muscle (which needs to be trained). In fact, both Augmentation and the main book talk about internal linking of implants additional to DNI - Augmentation specificly concerning automatic triggers.

In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions. They can also be linked to other cyberware implants.

So there is WiFi (network interface), internal link (network interface) and DNI (or manual/automatic trigger) (man-machine interface).

Hacking over those additional links beween implants makes sense. Those are physical connections that follow the usual rules. Hacking over DNI, on the other hand, doesn't work by the rules actually defined in the main book or Augmentation.
Because, to hack over DNI would require the hacker to hack your brain first - as it's the only bridge between two DNI interfaces.

[hobgoblin]

one can read that bit about linking as being done via the DNI system.

hell, its just another protocol for the hardware so it would not surprise me if it could work that way...

[Rotbart van Dain...]

one can read that bit about linking as being done via the DNI system.

Actually, it neither refers to WiFi nor DNI.

hell, its just another protocol for the hardware so it would not surprise me if it could work that way...

It's much more. It's about using the nervous system as a bus without interfering with it's function. And that's impossible.
In fact, DNI only works by interfering with it. And of course, Augmentation refers to the direct neural interface exclusively as a trigger.

[Aaron]

It's not impossible if the energy is low enough.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It's not impossible if the energy is low enough.

See, that's the problem - the nervous system is a binary bus with relais. Signals that are lower than the threshold don't make the jump, intensity is frequency-coded.

And of course, it's completly unnecessary to try using it that way, because Augmentation tells us that even manual triggers as well as remote triggers and automatic triggers in addition to the neural trigger (called DNI) are completly free of charge... both in Essence and money.

[Aaron]

See, that's the problem - the nervous system is a binary bus with relais. Signals that are lower than the threshold don't make the jump, intensity is frequency-coded.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

[WearzManySkins]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

I believe what he is saying is this, like in RL anything less than 5 volts is a Low/Null signal, anything 5 volts or greater is a High/Counted signal. Ie if the signal does not equal or exceed the threshold does not count or measured.

WMS

[Aaron]

Sure, but the threshold at which a signal can be read is arbitrary based on the technology being used. A skinlink (a technology that is modernly available), for example, does not need the kind of power that, say, Ethernet is looking for.

[Ryu]

The issue Rotbart raises is biological signal transmission, not reception. You need a biological "high" signal to trigger a signal along the neural pathway, high being defined by the trigger level of the ion canals in your nerves.

A more sensible interpretation has the "direct neural" part of DNI happen only at the brain, where a technological bus set up by nanites is connected to a large number of natural, newly formed axons. I believe the ability of the adult brain to develop new axons has been proven some years ago.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Sure, but the threshold at which a signal can be read is arbitrary based on the technology being used.

Just the moment you made the nervous system part of 'the technology used', you'll have to play by it's rules. Which aren't arbitrary at all - either the signal has the level to make the jump over the synapse, or it hasn't.

Thus, if you try transmit lower than that threshold, you won't get anywhere. If you reach that threshold, you just created a sensory signal.

But that's just the technical stuff, concerning SR, DNI is defined by Augmentation as a feedback switch to the brain - not a network interface. So no hacking over DNI - just hacking over the interal links as described in the main book and Augmentation.

A more sensible interpretation has the "direct neural" part of DNI happen only at the brain, where a technological bus set up by nanites is connected to a large number of natural, newly formed axons. I believe the ability of the adult brain to develop new axons has been proven some years ago.

But why would you do that, if letting those nanites create an fibre-optical link that is easier, more reliable and actually up to those near-infinite transmission speeds described by the rules - and is in fact so cheap that it costs neither money nor essence?

[Ryu]

But why would you do that, if letting those nanites create an fibre-optical link that is easier, more reliable and actually up to those near-infinite transmission speeds described by the rules - and is in fact so cheap that it costs neither money nor essence?

Because at some point I need to attach the wire to the neural pathways of/to the brain, at least if I want direct control over the implant. Lets call it "easy mental command", or something close to that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

As DNI is not a detailed piece of tech, you are free to consider it provided by an essence-free, very low-powered version of the SIM-module. All implants would be technologically wired to that, and thus share a connection. The brain-implant connection would be limited due to teach-in limitations, but the devices could be hacked via a purely technological pathway. Fits to the security concerns raised by Unwired.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Because at some point I need to attach the wire to the neural pathways of/to the brain, at least if I want direct control over the implant.

No, you don't - all that wire does is allowing implant A talk to implant C, like said in the main book.
Mental control happens directly at the implant via DNI.

As DNI is not a detailed piece of tech, you are free to consider it provided by an essence-free, very low-powered version of the SIM-module. All implants would be technologically wired to that, and thus share a connection.

Nope, Augmentation tells us that every implant has it's own neural connection (and other triggers, if desired).


The more I think about it, the more I get the impression that the author of said piece of Unwired simply missed those parts of the main book and Augmentation. Dead give-aways are the fact that DNI is once translated as Direct Neural Input instead of Direct Neural Interface, and only datajacks ackt as universal gateway by the rules.

But, hey - by RAW, it's up to two things: No Datajack, no Problem - and Strong Encryption makes Implants unhackable in-conflict anyway.

[Ryu]

Can you give me the relevant quote? Straight please, because I can´t seem to find support on the pages mentioned so far.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface, allowing the user to mentally access and control the implant.
This is the primary means of control for most cybernetics and requires the implant have a built-in computer.

The rest is on p. 32, Cyberware Triggers (something Unwired doesn't adress, at all.) - the relevant main book quote is above.

What you mean fits CyberSuites that are supposed to share some components - those should be handled as Clustered Nodes by default.

[Aaron]

I'm falling asleep, so please forgive me if I'm incoherent.

I'm talking about running an electrical signal along present neural structures, using the nerves as the medium for an electrical signal. Contrary to popular belief, a neurological impulse traveling along a nerve is not electrical in nature, but more like a wave of biochemical actions (ask the_dunner, he probably can explain it better than I can). What I'm talking about runs in parallel to nervous function.

And what the heck is a "binary bus with relais?" Unless I'm mistaken (and I might be), somebody's mixing their metaphors.

[JoelHalpern]

I'm falling asleep, so please forgive me if I'm incoherent.

I'm talking about running an electrical signal along present neural structures, using the nerves as the medium for an electrical signal. Contrary to popular belief, a neurological impulse traveling along a nerve is not electrical in nature, but more like a wave of biochemical actions (ask the_dunner, he probably can explain it better than I can). What I'm talking about runs in parallel to nervous function.

And what the heck is a "binary bus with relais?" Unless I'm mistaken (and I might be), somebody's mixing their metaphors.

I presume I am missing part of what you are taking as working (which probably means I am wrong here).
Given that nerves do not physically touch each other, how can you run an electrical signal "along a nerve" for more than the length of a single neuron? Yes, some neuron's have good reach, but for the whole body, that just doesn't cut it.
Skinlink works because you are running the electrical signal along the skin. And there are plenty of demonstrations that skin is sufficiently conductive. But the nervous system has all these inter-neuron gaps which are bridged by chemical signals. These appear, as I understand it, to provide sufficient insulation that a low level signal along the surface of a neuron simply isn't going to affect the next neuron.

Joel

[WearzManySkins]

Emphasis mine.
From this link:
Nerves

The signals that nerves carry, sometimes called nerve impulses, are also known as action potentials. These are rapidly (up to 120 m/s) traveling electrical waves, which typically begin in the cell body of a neuron and propagate down the axon to its tip or "terminus." The signals cross over from the terminus of the axon to the adjacent neurotransmitter receptor through a gap called the synapse. Motor neurons innervate or activate muscles groups.

From this link:
Action Potential

In neurophysiology, an action potential (also known as a nerve impulse or spike) is a pulse-like wave of voltage that travels along several types of cell membranes. The best-understood example is generated on the membrane of the axon of a neuron, but also appears in other types of excitable cells, such as cardiac muscle cells, and even plant cells. The resting voltage across the axonal membrane is typically −70 millivolts (mV), with the inside being more negative than the outside. As an action potential passes through a point, this voltage rises to roughly +40 mV in one millisecond, then returns to −70 mV. The action potential moves rapidly down the axon, with a conduction velocity as high as 100 meters/second (224 miles per hour). Because they are able to transmit information so fast, the flow of action potentials is a very efficient form of data transmission, considering that each neuron the signal passes through can be up to a meter in length.

So basically it is electrochemical.

WMS

[Rotbart van Dain...]

What I'm talking about runs in parallel to nervous function.

If you believe that the signal transmission through a neuron is not influenced by voltage application, then I understand how you could see this as a solution.

And what the heck is a "binary bus with relais?"

Basically, synapses act as a relais/transistor that allow signals to propagate along the path once the threshold is reached - making the bus binary. If your 'parallel' signal is below that threshold, it won't be propagated, though it still will distort normal function.


Nevertheless, the point is that Augmentation defines DNI as an integral man-machine interface, not an interconnecting network interface, so I still can't see where the hacking angle from Unwired came from, other than a misunderstanding.

[Aaron]

I presume I am missing part of what you are taking as working (which probably means I am wrong here).
Given that nerves do not physically touch each other, how can you run an electrical signal "along a nerve" for more than the length of a single neuron? Yes, some neuron's have good reach, but for the whole body, that just doesn't cut it.
Skinlink works because you are running the electrical signal along the skin. And there are plenty of demonstrations that skin is sufficiently conductive. But the nervous system has all these inter-neuron gaps which are bridged by chemical signals. These appear, as I understand it, to provide sufficient insulation that a low level signal along the surface of a neuron simply isn't going to affect the next neuron.

Would you be so kind as to look up length of the average synapse (or "inter-neuron gap"), and then also check to see what's actually in that "gap" (it's not a vacuum)? It would save me some time. Thanks.

[Aaron]

So basically it is electrochemical.

Sorry, I was sleepy. What I meant to say was that while the action of the electrical impulse moving along the nerve is electrochemical (120 m/s, indeed; very slow), the actual routing of those signals is biochemical in nature, what with the whole "let's route the signal generated by our brains by altering the concentration of neurotransmitter between us" thing.

If you're using the nervous system as a networking medium, and you're using voltages low enough to be read by machines but enough to trigger nerves, you're all good.

[Aaron]

If you believe that the signal transmission through a neuron is not influenced by voltage application, then I understand how you could see this as a solution.

I'll see your link and raise you a voltage-dependent calcium channel.

Basically, synapses act as a relais/transistor that allow signals to propagate along the path once the threshold is reached - making the bus binary. If your 'parallel' signal is below that threshold, it won't be propagated, though it still will distort normal function.

First off, you keep using that word ("bus"). I do not think it means what you think it means. To save me time, please look up "electrical bus" on Wikipedia, unless you're not trying to use the term "bus" as a networking term.

Second, and I'm really curious about this, in what language is "relay" spelled "relais?" Is that French? I truly am curious; one of my degrees is Linguistics.

Nevertheless, the point is that Augmentation defines DNI as an integral man-machine interface, not an interconnecting network interface, so I still can't see where the hacking angle from Unwired came from, other than a misunderstanding.

Dunno about that. I just thought I'd mention that it's possible to use one's nerves as a networking medium.

[Fuchs]

Relais is German.