Unwired Questions, Now with Merge-y Goodness Options

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I'll see your link and raise you a voltage-dependent calcium channel.

Interesting, but not exactly relevant to the point - the synapse gap that still will isolate the 'parallel', lower potential if it doesn't meet the threshold. That's what it does.

First off, you keep using that word ("bus"). I do not think it means what you think it means.

Actually (and unfortunatly), I do. Given the low-level, intra-device nature, it's appropriate.

Second, and I'm really curious about this, in what language is "relay" spelled "relais?" Is that French? I truly am curious; one of my degrees is Linguistics.

German.

I just thought I'd mention that it's possible to use one's nerves as a networking medium.

In that case, we'll have to agree to disagree. Mostly because one's nerves are already used as a 'networking medium' every day by oneself, with no 'bandwidth' to spare.

[WearzManySkins]

Second, and I'm really curious about this, in what language is "relay" spelled "relais?" Is that French? I truly am curious; one of my degrees is Linguistics.

Really none of my degrees are in linguistics and I was able to understand/decipher what he meant.

Maybe you were sleepy in that class too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Ryu]

One can not change the potential across the membrane of the axon without messing with the basic information transmitted by the nerve. Which of the following do you visit upon your natural signals? (I am guessing it would have to be the later, as a technological ion channel into/out of the synaptic gap could analyse the voltage to trigger correctly.)

- A higher-gated systems action potentials would trigger the states of the lower-gated systems ion channels. (= wrong information)

- A lower-gated system would speed up or slow down the state changes of the higher-gated system (= distorted information).


With SR4s tech, it should be easy to build a dedicated technological bus (even if wrong, I was using that term intentionally before). The tech can handle all networking needs via a central routing chip, the brain just has to build new old-school axons to that while learning to use the new functions of the body. All existing, natural signals are left alone, the functional requirements on the brain are lower, and malware can spread via DNI while brainhacking does not get a foot in the door.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Sure, just Augmentation tells us that the neural interface is integral to the implant, not centralized.
Also the method of technologically linking the implants is never detailed, but manual/automatic/remote triggers are seperate from the neural one as per Augmentation.

Of course, Unwired tells us that

A datajack provides immediate access to all cyber-implants with a direct neural interface.

So, by RAW, Datajacks seem to be linked to every computerized implant by default - and if you got no datajack, there's no problem.

[Ryu]

Integral does not necessarily mean "inside". It can also mean "holistic". I would not let that word stand between me and a simple, believable solution anyway, just saying.


I am retracting my former statement and suggest to use higher-gated additional ion channels. It would likely be fun to implement it, but one could ride piggy-back on the "high" signal of natures action potentials, as long as the number of natural impulses is sufficient to carry the information. Combined with the right inbound/outbound speed of ion transport, higher-gated channels could keep natures signal timing, while creating two kinds of high signal for a binary technological system (with variable transmission speed).

Now the doc trying to teach my DNI connections to spread malware has a lesson comming... that should only work with a central routing device, but not within the limits of actual direct neural input.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Integral does not necessarily mean "inside". It can also mean "holistic".

The latter is not likely, though, given the context - Cybersuites, of course, are something else entirely.

I would not let that word stand between me and a simple, believable solution anyway, just saying.

Whatever you choose to believe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I am retracting my former statement and suggest to use higher-gated additional ion channels. It would likely be fun to implement it, but one could ride piggy-back on the "high" signal of natures action potentials, as long as the number of natural impulses is sufficient to carry the information. Combined with the right inbound/outbound speed of ion transport, higher-gated channels could keep natures signal timing, while creating two kinds of high signal for a binary technological system (with variable transmission speed).

Of course, the free optical wire will produce better results in any kind of situation.

Now the doc trying to teach my DNI connections to spread malware has a lesson comming... that should only work with a central routing device, but not within the limits of actual direct neural input.

Never get a Datajck, then - given the age of Skinlink, they are overrated, anyway.
That's the real advatage of going wire-free - you can turn the relevant interface off and go autistic.

[Blade]

Relais is also correct in French.

[Aaron]

Relais is German.

Doch wirklich? Huh.

[Aaron]

Interesting, but not exactly relevant to the point - the synapse gap that still will isolate the 'parallel', lower potential if it doesn't meet the threshold. That's what it does.

I ... never mind. We're apparently talking about two different signals, here.

Actually (and unfortunatly), I do. Given the low-level, intra-device nature, it's appropriate.

Question the first: if it's a bus, what exactly is a "binary bus," and why make the distinction?
Question the second: if the CNS (or ZNS, in German) is a bus, how come my fingers don't get the signal that is sent to my abs?
These are the issues that make it difficult for me to accept your premise.

German.

Danke.

In that case, we'll have to agree to disagree. Mostly because one's nerves are already used as a 'networking medium' every day by oneself, with no 'bandwidth' to spare.

Again, we're talking about different signals, here.

[Ryu]

The German language took Relais from old French, or so Wiki claims (certainly sounds that way).


Under SR3, all devices got DNI-enabled by being hooked up to either a datajack or router (Man&Machine, Interconnectivity->mental access, pg. 46).

As DNI can spread malware, it still has to provide networking abilities between the DNI devices (Unwired pg. 90).

The disadvantages of a disabled wireless adapter (Augmentation pg. 31) can only be explained if the bandwith of DNI is sub-par. Neural transmission can handle that, but can´t explain how a limited mental interface is going about spreading malware. Not without making the brain a hackable networking device.

A cheap, low performance router, hooked up to the brain and all DNI devices, answers many questions. It might be possible to use neurons for the transmission of information, but it seems to be an awfully complicated way of going about things, unless the implant is replacing a natural function (only). Why should one try in other cases?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Under SR3, all devices got DNI-enabled by being hooked up to either a datajack or router (Man&Machine, Interconnectivity->mental access, pg. 46).

Indeed, but cyber implants had and still have their very own DNI by default.

As DNI can spread malware, it still has to provide networking abilities between the DNI devices (Unwired pg. 90).

Which it doesn't, by the actual rules - just Datajacks allow access to DNI implants. And even the fluff refers to datajacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The disadvantages of a disabled wireless adapter (Augmentation pg. 31) can only be explained if the bandwith of DNI is sub-par.

Actually, Augmentation presumes that no access is possible, at all.

A cheap, low performance router, hooked up to the brain and all DNI devices, answers many questions.

You mean, like the free links the main book and Augmentation talk about - except for the low performance part? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ryu]

You are right, the actual rules on pg. 102 only speak of datajacks. And in that case I´m fine with the assumption of a connection, that´s what the things have always been about.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I just find it odd that datajacks seem force you to link all your linkable implants to them - and that the author seems to presume that has anything to do with DNI directly.

Of course, as an abstraction, an implant having DNI requires it to be computerized and thus link- and then hackable, making DNI a somehow sufficient criteria.
Maybe that's where this confusion comes from.

[Ryu]

There are three kinds of connectivity in the main book (gear chapter on cyberware): wireless, DNI, optional connection to other implants. Given the general quality of the German translation, it is possible that the implant connection option is supposed to be provided by DNI, and obligatory. Might be another "feature".

Augmentation deals with wireless and DNI functions, but considers the lack of wireless connectivity a disadvantage. No talk of "Hey, you have that datajack. Cool!"

Unwired does not seem to have any restrictions on the connection via the datajack/DNI. It seems that one device with wired port could remove all need for wireless links. Cyberware security option: Have a datajack, disable all wireless adapters, use your comlink to provide wireless capability to the network. Instant unavoidable chokepoint. Internal comlinks would be another form of critical access point, so there are more than the datajack.


Can we get an official answer on the capabilities and limitations of straight implant connections?

[Tarantula]

There are three kinds of connectivity in the main book (gear chapter on cyberware): wireless, DNI, optional connection to other implants. Given the general quality of the German translation, it is possible that the implant connection option is supposed to be provided by DNI, and obligatory. Might be another "feature".

Augmentation deals with wireless and DNI functions, but considers the lack of wireless connectivity a disadvantage. No talk of "Hey, you have that datajack. Cool!"

Unwired does not seem to have any restrictions on the connection via the datajack/DNI. It seems that one device with wired port could remove all need for wireless links. Cyberware security option: Have a datajack, disable all wireless adapters, use your comlink to provide wireless capability to the network. Instant unavoidable chokepoint. Internal comlinks would be another form of critical access point, so there are more than the datajack.


Can we get an official answer on the capabilities and limitations of straight implant connections?

And the quote that all this came from was unwired stating that viruses can spread from one implant to another. If they're all tied to your datajack for outside connection, wireless off, thats fine, but if someone hooks up to your cyberleg while you're sleeping, and uploads a virus, your datajack will get it too, and it will then go to all your other ware.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

There are three kinds of connectivity in the main book (gear chapter on cyberware): wireless, DNI, optional connection to other implants. Given the general quality of the German translation, it is possible that the implant connection option is supposed to be provided by DNI, and obligatory. Might be another "feature".

I do not own german books of SR4, nor do I use them as reference.
The relevant quote above is from the latest PDF:

In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions. They can also be linked to other cyberware implants.

So there is no error here - links are additional and optional, like additional triggers in Augmentation.

[Tarantula]

If you don't have DNI, enjoy spending simple actions to use that piece of ware every single time.

[Ryu]

Thanks for the quote Rotbart! (Again)

@Tarantula: I´m aware that physical access to a device on the PAN can still be the attackers win. That´s part of the "where do I sleep tonight?" kind of risks however, not a question of network security. One can not casually disassemble the external implants of someone else. And why shouldn´t one have DNI? Apart from the blurred lines in Unwired, it does not pose a risk?

[Tarantula]

Right. Now, with Unwired, if someone hacks any one of your implants with DNI, it can propagate the virus to any other DNI implants. Thats the only reason its bad.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Nope. Per Rules, that applies only to Datajacks.

[Tarantula]

Nope. Per Rules, that applies only to Datajacks.

Uh, no, per p.90 of unwired, all DNI devices are linked, presumably by the DNI interface. (I see it as one interface, the DNI, that future implants are just connected to, since having 5 different DNI's to your brain for 5 different implants would probably get the implants confused. Also, how are they supposed to figure out what you're thinking of doing without somehow reading the whole brain?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Which aren't rules. The rules are on p. 102. Concerning the 'one central DNI' - both the main book and augmentation speak of individual DNI.

Please read the discussion above, it's all there.

[Tarantula]

I haven't seen any specifics to either individual DNI or a central DNI. In my games, I'd rule it as having a central DNI that all DNI implants are hooked up to. Why? Go put 5 trode nets on your head, and see if you can send different signals to the different ones (trodes are DNI too).

I think this is alluded to where it says that if you have a datajack then your cyberware is routed through that for DNI. Seems to suggest you only have 1 DNI active, and that all things using DNI utilize that one.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I haven't seen any specifics to either individual DNI or a central DNI.

The quotes telling so from p. 330 main book and p. 31 & 32 Augmentation are above.

[Tarantula]

330 of the main book says they can also be linked to other cyberware. I don't know what quote you're referring to in aug, can you actually quote it please?