Unwired Questions, Now with Merge-y Goodness Options

[Tycho]

So it is right that degradation affects every software in game (when cracked, of cause)?


cya
Tycho

[paws2sky]

So...

Say, I have an uncracked Pistols activesoft. I've had it for a couple years and its been so good to me that I've never bothered to get rid of it or learn the skill myself. I only use an Ares Predator IV, a gun widely available when I purchased my activesoft.

We take on a new team member, a skillwired wageslave no longer in corp employment. To get the new member something resembling the ability to fight, we crack the Pistols skillsoft and I give him one of my spare Predator IV's.

Magically, two months later, my activesoft, as well as the noob's activesoft, no longer works as well with my Predator IV?

Uh... no.

Sorry, Synner, that makes zero sense to me. I understand planned obsolescence, but if I haven't upgraded ANYTHING at all or changed my gear setup in any way, I can't think of a reason why I'd suddenly get poorer performance out of my equipment.

This isn't even one of the so-called corner cases.

-paws

[Cheops]

Skillsofts shouldn't degrade, als Skills also don't. Languages also don't change quickly, so if a piece of code knows Japanese fluently today, it will also be fluently in 10 years, perhaps missing the newest "slang", but that's not enough to make it degrade 1 point, imho.

However, what you seem to be glossing over about the degrading thing is that you bought those Skillwires for either 50% off, 90% off, or for free and as a result it now degrades. I'd say that's pretty good.

The thing that dismays me the most is that Agent Smith is now officially part of the game. Whereas the rules previously didn't say you could do Agent Smith so a GM could hand wave it away, there are now formal rules for it. Access ID, p 110. They all have the same AID unless you spoof the AID when you first load it onto a node. So you can still do it by taking a Complex Action (about 1 second) per agent. There are even rules now for finding nodes to run the agents on so you don't have to buy a ton of commlinks.

[Ancient History]

So...

Say, I have an uncracked Pistols activesoft. I've had it for a couple years and its been so good to me that I've never bothered to get rid of it or learn the skill myself. I only use an Ares Predator IV, a gun widely available when I purchased my activesoft.

We take on a new team member, a skillwired wageslave no longer in corp employment. To get the new member something resembling the ability to fight, we crack the Pistols skillsoft and I give him one of my spare Predator IV's.

Magically, two months later, my activesoft, as well as the noob's activesoft, no longer works as well with my Predator IV?

Uh... no.

Let's just get this straight for a minute: for years, you've been a loyal little corp drone with your perfectly legal copy of the Pistols activesoft. You decide to crack it, instead of just buying your little buddy a new copy like a good customer, and so you stop getting the updates and patches you need.

Tough noogies.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

So it is right that degradation affects every software in game (when cracked, of cause)?

No. Technically, Registration is only available to Common, Hacking, Autosoft, Simsense.

As for the issue of degrading programs:

This is just a rationale to tell the players: Your characters stuff gets worse over time so you have to pay upkeep - everyone else doesn't. Thinking to hard about the rationale will only cause pain - if you don't like to put additional pressure on characters, just change the timeframe or ignore the rule alltogether: It's just there to make Technomancers feel better.

It's the same for Nanite degradation and restoration by a nano-hive - change degradation to 1 month and restoration to 1 day and Nanites like Nantidote actually become useful.

[Synner]

Sorry, Synner, that makes zero sense to me. I understand planned obsolescence, but if I haven't upgraded ANYTHING at all or changed my gear setup in any way, I can't think of a reason why I'd suddenly get poorer performance out of my equipment.

Because for the last two years you have been updating and patching the skillsoft automatically (to enhance integration with the new Ares Predator IV smartlink friend/foe update in patch v3.12d, to remove a slight twitch that occurs when holding a Pistol at a 64º angle, to better assimilate the new SmartEye imagelink DNI codec that's integral to all new Evo cybereyes, or the latest greatest data exchange algorhythm from Renraku, etc). Suddenly not only are those patches and updates not coming, but because the system no longer recieves updates its performance preprogrammed obsolescence kicks in (ie. error checking and compensation systems stop working, etc) —and you can't even complain, you are using pirated software. Obviously, the reasoning changes slightly for different types of software, but the basic principles apply.

[Irian]

Let's just get this straight for a minute: for years, you've been a loyal little corp drone with your perfectly legal copy of the Pistols activesoft. You decide to crack it, instead of just buying your little buddy a new copy like a good customer, and so you stop getting the updates and patches you need.

Why should an activesoft degrade? I download the cracked Pistols activesoft, go to a shooting range and can shoot really well. A year after that, I go to the same shooting range and suddenly I don't hit anything anymore?

[paws2sky]

Let's just get this straight for a minute: for years, you've been a loyal little corp drone with your perfectly legal copy of the Pistols activesoft. You decide to crack it, instead of just buying your little buddy a new copy like a good customer, and so you stop getting the updates and patches you need.

Tough noogies.

WTF? What updates and patches!? I'm using the exact same setup I've always been using!


If I turn off or decline the automatic software updates on my computer IRL, my copy of iTunes still does everything it used to. All my MP3s still play, my iTune library still exists, I can still add new music files. I'm not using the video features, iTunes store, and all that jazz anyway, so I don't care if they get updated. I just want it to play music.

Similarly with my copy of photoshop. I don't care to buy the latest and greatest version of the software, but my exisiting copy doesn't get worse because of that. I may not have some of the bells and whistles the newer version does, but so what? It doesn't mean my other program stops working...

Cause if it did, my son's 10+ year old computer wouldn't even boot up.

-paws

[Ancient History]

Why should an activesoft degrade?

Because megacorps are greedy bastards.

[paws2sky]

Okay, just got an email from someone who's been following this, with the following quote attached. He cites it as being on p. 118 of Unwired.

Note that due to the recording nature, format, and specialized
post production techniques used to create simsense programs,
neither skillsoft nor BTLs can be programmed and updated in the
standard software sense.

Okay, if that's true, how exactly do I patch a cracked activesoft?

[kanislatrans]

kind of like" No consumer repairable parts inside. opening this case by anyone other than a qualified technician will result in voiding your warrenty!" stickers.

makes sense to me.

I like it. gives the hacker something to be doing that revoles around hacking.

of course,if they are all busy patching thier cracked programs, the hits on the Pron networks will take a drastic dive in traffic.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Irian]

Because megacorps are greedy bastards.

Sorry, the degrading-rules make sense for some special cases, where new developments make old programs useless. But I don't think it's a good idea to try to force the rule on things where it doesn't make sense. Of course you could explain it that way, but then cars would have to degrade, too, as would guns, knifes, kitchen utils, etc.
Anyway, Degrading is a rules aspect that simulates the world. If it was something that megacorps implemented, it would be a programming option.

[Fuchs]

I am with Rotbart on this one: SOTA rules were put in to make TMs feel good. Not needed.

[DireRadiant]

(meta) Humans never degrade! or change....

[WearzManySkins]

I am with Rotbart on this one: SOTA rules were put in to make TMs feel good. Not needed.

I agree also with the above. degrading is not needed in most cases.

WMS

[Cheops]

Okay, just got an email from someone who's been following this, with the following quote attached. He cites it as being on p. 118 of Unwired.



Okay, if that's true, how exactly do I patch a cracked activesoft?

Nice try Nugget. That only applies to Simsense Options. And it means that you have to purchase the simsense chip with option all at once, you can't buy the simsense and later add options to it.

As far as degrading goes I just take it to mean that the Corps don't provide backwards compatibility with their programs. Ie. Just because your Itunes currently plays music, next month when the new Apple Music Format comes out it is not compatible with your old player unless you patch to the new player.

[apple]

So, has anybody, especially the authors, tested the SOTA-rules in full for their hacker/rigger-archetypes? Because I think it will involve a lot of dice rolls, bookkeeping and numbercrunching each month to determine if the hacker gets their cracked patches and pays 10% of the difference.

And no, Cobra, legal programs are not really usable by hackers, because they leave a datatrail not only when you buy then, but when you use them too. Or did I misunderstod Unwired?

SYL

[paws2sky]

Nice try Nugget. That only applies to Simsense Options. And it means that you have to purchase the simsense chip with option all at once, you can't buy the simsense and later add options to it.

Since I don't have the book, I'm limited by what info I can get out of people. So can the Nugget stuff, k?

As far as degrading goes I just take it to mean that the Corps don't provide backwards compatibility with their programs. Ie. Just because your Itunes currently plays music, next month when the new Apple Music Format comes out it is not compatible with your old player unless you patch to the new player.

I can still play my old music. I can still add new songs to my library. Why do I care about the new format when the old one works just fine.

Similarly, I can still use the Predator I've been using for years with my Pistols Activesoft. Maybe I can't use the new Ares Shredyoursadassintoconfettisoup Metal Storm Heavy Pistol (ASMSHP for short) that just came out last week. Okay. So? The Predator works just fine for my purposes.

-paws

[Fuchs]

SOTA was bad in SR3, I don't see it being good in SR4. The whole set up just smacks of "roll roll bookkeep bookkeep".

I do find it rather strange that MitS, Augmentation and Arsenal more or less simply added options while Unwired adds more non-optional hindrances as well.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Because I think it will involve a lot of dice rolls, bookkeeping and numbercrunching each month to determine if the hacker gets their cracked patches and pays 10% of the difference.

And don't forget the spoofed lifestyle...

And no, Cobra, legal programs are not really usable by hackers, because they leave a datatrail not only when you buy then, but when you use them too. Or did I misunderstod Unwired?

No, you didn't. Using Registered Programs is suicide for runners. Registered Skillsoft are fine, on the other hand - they stay on the skillwire/sim module and the uplink to the matrix is only activated every month or so to update.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Because megacorps are greedy bastards.

Actually, if you buy it, it will never degrade - and you'll never by that program again.

If greed was the issue, legally bought programs would forcefully degrade - and cracked ones wouldn't.

[PlatonicPimp]

OK, just to throw a few things out there that could still muck with your program rating even given all that.

As exploits are found in the old program, viruses and other malware that take advantage of those exploits crop up. Patches close the exploits, your unpatched version still has them. The cumulative effect of the malware is a drain on resources or borks features.

Certain coding errors take time to add up. Without patches, allocation errors gradually build up. Minor state chages such as shutting down improperly also introduce errors. Over time, without the maintainence that patches represent, these errors reduce the rating of the program.

I know that I have 10 year old computers that have never had an update or reinstall, that can't complete their boot process because they've borked themselves with accumulated errors. However, you can simply assume that a program cannot be reduced below rating 1.

That said, if you don't like it, change the interval of degredation. I might even make it a curve, saying that degredation occurs every (6/rating) months. So SOTA degrades quickly, but less SOTA stuff is more stable.

I know that unless my Hacker characters are into all this, though, i think I'll just combine lifestyle hacking and program updates into regular lifestyle costs. IE: yes, being a hacker saves you on lifestyle costs, but use that extra money to buy patches, so you break even. Or for serious, just buy your character a cracker contact. There are a half dozen easy ways to make this go away.

[Dashifen]

I know that unless my Hacker characters are into all this, though, i think I'll just combine lifestyle hacking and program updates into regular lifestyle costs. IE: yes, being a hacker saves you on lifestyle costs, but use that extra money to buy patches, so you break even. Or for serious, just buy your character a cracker contact. There are a half dozen easy ways to make this go away.

Quoted for truth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I like the concept of the rules since most of my hacker characters have ended up with hundreds of thousands of nuyen after being basically perfect out of the box with the highest rating programs and attributes they can get. I'm excited by these rules because they will give the hacker character the drive the need to find the SOTA which, without degradation, they were consistently at after character generation.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Because for the last two years you have been updating and patching the skillsoft automatically (to enhance integration with the new Ares Predator IV smartlink friend/foe update in patch v3.12d, to remove a slight twitch that occurs when holding a Pistol at a 64º angle, to better assimilate the new SmartEye imagelink DNI codec that's integral to all new Evo cybereyes, or the latest greatest data exchange algorhythm from Renraku, etc). Suddenly not only are those patches and updates not coming, but because the system no longer recieves updates its performance preprogrammed obsolescence kicks in (ie. error checking and compensation systems stop working, etc) —and you can't even complain, you are using pirated software. Obviously, the reasoning changes slightly for different types of software, but the basic principles apply.

The basic principle is a game design decision that can't be reasonably explained at all in the game world.

Just take someone with no smartlink, a dumb gun, the only implants are skillwires (with wifi disabled) and a cracked skillsoft loaded on them .

After 4 months he can't shoot anymore.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I like the concept of the rules since most of my hacker characters have ended up with hundreds of thousands of nuyen after being basically perfect out of the box with the highest rating programs and attributes they can get. I'm excited by these rules because they will give the hacker character the drive the need to find the SOTA which, without degradation, they were consistently at after character generation.

Most players won't enjoy spending precious game time and hard-earned character resources just to make their characters stay as good as they are when everyone will get better or blow their money on fun things.