Unwired Questions, Now with Merge-y Goodness Options

[Jaid]

in spoofing lifestyles, there is no target. you're doing the exact same spoof, you're just doing a whole heck of a lot more of it if you want higher lifestyles. there is nothing to indicate you're hitting higher security targets, you're just hitting the same level of security more often. the only difference is that it takes longer to do, and if you were just hitting more difficult targets that shouldn't take any longer, it should only be less likely to succeed.

and for spoofing protection, i'll try explaining again:

you analyse the target. you see that it has the limitation option which prevents it from targeting <insert whatever limitation it is>

given you can see the limitation, and you know what the limitation is against, you therefore know what the program is looking for in a target to make it affected by the limitation program.

the reason you don't have to do any further searching is that once you see the limitation option and identify what it's limiting against, you *already* know what you need to make yourself look like to trigger the limitation option. your search was done when you analysed the target. it's not that you don't have to find the information, it's that the very means by which you discover you need the information also results in your finding the information also. if someone just tells you that a program has some kind of limitation option, that isn't enough, you need to analyse it (presumably you could also receive the information from someone else analysing it also, though that isn't explicit)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

in spoofing lifestyles, there is no target. you're doing the exact same spoof, you're just doing a whole heck of a lot more of it if you want higher lifestyles. there is nothing to indicate you're hitting higher security targets, you're just hitting the same level of security more often.

No, the description at the lower end indicates that you target different levels of security. And that's perfectly plausible for an increased threshold - you need to specify what kind of lifestyle you want, first.
Honestly, believing that getting a high or luxurious lifestyle doesn't involve more secure verification systems than getting a low or middle one is not an assumption you should entertain.

given you can see the limitation, and you know what the limitation is against, you therefore know what the program is looking for in a target to make it affected by the limitation program.

If you succeed in the Matrix Perception test, you get the exact nature of the limitation and can directly feed it the desired result with Spoof.
But your argument was that you need to find hte desired result first through some kind of search.

[Jaid]

If you succeed in the Matrix Perception test, you get the exact nature of the limitation and can directly feed it the desired result with Spoof.
But your argument was that you need to find hte desired result first through some kind of search.

i don't think that was ever my argument. my argument *was* that you can't spoof an individual program (though, courtesy of a definition which i suspect the author in unwired wasn't particularly thinking of, individual programs are considered part of a persona and would by RAW be covered under anything that effects the persona, i suppose).

and i still don't see anything to indicate tougher security for higher lifestyles. at the very least, there's nothing anywhere near the scale of what you'd face trying to get into a node that has anything to do with the sales/service of what is essentially milspec gear. and i also don't see anywhere that it says you are spoofing a luxury lifestyle to give you a luxury lifestyle for free. you'd have to be moving on a daily basis, because it's not going to be long before someone notices that you're throwing around 3,000 nuyen worth a day without paying that in real money. the only plausible explanation i can offer is that you're spoofing yourself to be someone else, and that your lifestyle is being paid by someone who doesn't make a habit of keeping a record of what their bank balance should be.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

and i still don't see anything to indicate tougher security for higher lifestyles. at the very least, there's nothing anywhere near the scale of what you'd face trying to get into a node that has anything to do with the sales/service of what is essentially milspec gear.

Noone is talking about Rating 7.

and i also don't see anywhere that it says you are spoofing a luxury lifestyle to give you a luxury lifestyle for free.

Actually, that's the whole point of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Per RC, you can spoof individual categories.

[Jaid]

Noone is talking about Rating 7.

milspec gear is by default rating 5 actually. rating 7 isn't milspec, it's prototype stuff that is beyond the cutting edge, which militaries don't have.

so if you're trying to get yourself rating 5 or 6 software patches, you're going up against a place that is offering military-grade hacking programs.

[Aaron]

I think military devices are Rating 5, and military nodes tend to be Rating 7+. So your military-issue drone is going to be Rating 5, but the node that is coordinating that drone's unit could be Rating 7. Does that make sense?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

rating 7 isn't milspec, it's prototype stuff that is beyond the cutting edge, which militaries don't have.

You might to want to read the title of the black box on p. 112 of Unwired, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

You might to want to read the title of the black box on p. 112 of Unwired, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

perhaps you should read the information inside the black box then, which says that those aren't distributed to just anyone, they are given to special operatives, and are not handed out to the military at large. the sample spiders on page 68-69 do not include any programs of rating 7 anywhere. the matrix support specialist, who is unique in that he has *any* rating 6 programs at all, and even has 1 each at ratings 3 and 4, has the following in their description:

military Matrix specialists cover military operations from the lowliest commando squad all the way up to the largest division.

if the military is mostly using rating 5-6 software, and other hackers are not, then rating 5-6 software is milspec gear.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

perhaps you should read the information inside the black box then, which says that those aren't distributed to just anyone, they are given to special operatives, and are not handed out to the military at large.

But that's what SR4 calls milspec software. It even say so in the black box.
Don't blame me if you use the wrong terms.

if the military is mostly using rating 5-6 software, and other hackers are not, then rating 5-6 software is milspec gear.

Programs up to rating 6 are generally available, and most hackers will use them if the got the hardware to do so.

the matrix support specialist, who is unique in that he has *any* rating 6 programs at all, and even has 1 each at ratings 3 and 4

Which is pretty much silly, given the rules... but hey.

[Jaid]

well then, if you're just going to choose to be impossible to have a reasonable discussion with, then i guess i'm gonna just stop wasting my time.

[Tarantula]

well then, if you're just going to choose to be impossible to have a reasonable discussion with, then i guess i'm gonna just stop wasting my time.

Just because the military is using the programs, doesn't make them "mil-spec". Just because the military uses a fancy GPS watch, doesn't mean they're the only ones who can get/use it (What i consider to be the definition of mil-spec).

Since its obvious most any hacker could get rating 4-6 programs, and only the military has the ability to have 7+ programs, then 7+ is milspec, while 4-6 is typically what they use due to costs.

[Jaid]

so what you're saying is that only missile launchers that fire ICBMs (the 'launchers' being 'silos') are milspec, and anything less (no matter how restricted it may be) is not milspec because there's something bigger out there?

sorry, no, that doesn't work for me.

the kind of people who are busting out rating 5 and 6 programs are also the kinds of people with skill ratings at 5 and 6. we can tell that by looking at the sample spiders. rating 5 and 6 hacking programs are *not* commonly available. they are a forbidden item, and the fact that most PC hackers have programs at rating 5 or 6 is a testament to the fact that they are extremely skilled hackers with high-end gear and programs to run it. even the megas don't typically use those kinds of programs except for their most skilled personnel, which are basically their own militaries. just because rating 7 programs are military grade doesn't mean that rating 6 is not.

[Tarantula]

I don't call an ak-47 milspec. Plenty of people have 'em. I would call a tank milspec because mostly only militaries have them. I wouldn't call a rating 6 program that quite a few people have milspec. I would call a rating 7 program only militaries have milspec.

Just because its illegal doesn't mean its milspec, what matters if the military has it, and how common it is outside of the military.

[Jaid]

Just because its illegal doesn't mean its milspec, what matters if the military has it, and how common it is outside of the military.

and as i just showed by pointing to the sample spiders lists earlier, not very many people have rating 5 and 6 programs. the kind of people who *do* have rating 5 and 6 programs are described as being military. now they may be in the military of a megacorp, or in the military of a nation, but these programs are *not* common, and not many people have them, just like wired reflexes 2 (or synaptic boosters 2) are not common even though there is better stuff out there, but that doesn't mean that everyone and their dog has wired 2, and it likewise doesn't mean that you're going to run into a lot of rating 5-6 hacking programs. they don't compare with an AK-47, they compare with with a Mossberg AM-CMDT shotgun, except they're more expensive per program than the shotgun, and they require additional high availability, expensive gear to even use those programs, never mind running an entire suite of them.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

and as i just showed by pointing to the sample spiders lists earlier, not very many people have rating 5 and 6 programs.

No, you didn't.
In fact, using samples, you can't.

the kind of people who *do* have rating 5 and 6 programs are described as being military.

So the hightech watch is offlimits to everyone else?

[Falconer]

On the SOTA bits and skillsofts... I don't see a problem at all w/ them degrading. The code might not be changing but the body they're running in certainly is! Think of it this way... the users getting old, his muscles are constantly changing (either getting bigger w/ use or atrophying w/ neglect), his reaction times aren't as good as they were when he was young and had them installed.

Think of it as a monthly tune-up as the software takes accounting of the system it's run in. Contacts the skillsoft company which then runs it through its own expert system which isn't in the program the player has. With the new 'tweaked, customized, or optomized' settings the activesoft can continue to work up to it's rating.

Frankly I liked the bits about highly cybered individuals needing regular maintenance and such in prior editions. There's an up front cost to get the gear then an ongoing cost to keep it going. Same goes for things like aircraft and vehicles... it costs nuyen to keep those things flying and maintained. I don't see why it's so objectionable to have a figure of... I have 25,000nuyen of bought software... I have 10000 more of hacking utilities which I spend 1000 a month to keep up to date and unregistered to me.

[Cain]

A program with a rating of 7+ is effectively useless, or at least no better than a rating 6 program. There's no way to get a Response of 7+, and you can't have a System higher than your Response. You could try the nexi rules, but that'd be very limited in application.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

On the SOTA bits and skillsofts... I don't see a problem at all w/ them degrading. The code might not be changing but the body they're running in certainly is!

Not in a month timeframe. Years, perhaps.

But the point is moot, anyway - normal Skillsofts are not customized to the user in any way.

A program with a rating of 7+ is effectively useless, or at least no better than a rating 6 program.

With the Optimization option 3, it runs on a System 4 with full rating.

There's no way to get a Response of 7+

Sure there is, it's even in the main book.

[Jaid]

No, you didn't.
In fact, using samples, you can't.

so pointing out that only extremely skilled specialists are assumed to have these high rating programs when the megas are able to basically hand them out to their own hackers for no cost beyond initial production doesn't show that these programs are, in fact, rare? if the best of the best corp hackers, who could logically have no limits whatsoever on what programs they are able to use, are even using rating 5 programs at all, then rating 6 programs must be pretty special.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

if the best of the best corp hackers, who could logically have no limits whatsoever on what programs they are able to use, are even using rating 5 programs at all, then rating 6 programs must be pretty special.

Or you are reading way too much into a sample.

[Cain]

Sure there is, it's even in the main book.

Main book only goes to Response 6. Response 7 isn't even mentioned, IIRC; there are rules for getting a System and Firewall of 7+, but not hardware.

[Tarantula]

SR4, 212, "Some cutting-edge and prototype models may exceed rating 6 attributes, but these are exceptionally rare and hard to come by."

So yes, they do exist by RAW.

[HappyDaze]

I would call a rating 7 program only militaries have milspec.

The idea that the military has the best programs seems off to me.
Sure, they *would* have access, but not exclusive access. That's like the idea of milspec drawings. It's very hard to control the development and distribution of programs that can be made with virtually no materials and access to whatever computers the hightly skilled programmer can find - it's not at all like building a MBT in your garage. Once you've made the program, you can distribute copies making it available to less skilled users, and that's going to be hard to stop.

[Earlydawn]

I don't think milspec would be cutting edge, considering budgets 'n all. If anything, the megas are withholding the good stuff from sale until they cook something better..

[HappyDaze]

If you stay true to the cyberpunk genre, the best programs are in the hands of indepenmdent hackers that cook them up themselves. Later, when they've got something new and better, they might sell-off their old programs to the streets.