Recoil Quetion, need answer on rule question Options

[Mystery Mantis]

ok, i have a player that is convinced he is in a John Woo flick when he plays shadowrun. He likes to play characters that are pistol firing fiends, and they always have one in each hand. for the most part i underrstand everything but the uncompensated recoil thing.,
the book says that uncompensated recoil from one gun aplies to the other (or something like that). what i need to know is, when? the way i usually see it happening (which could be what is screwing me up), they fire one time with primary hand, then with off-hand, then again with prime hand, then again with off hand. so, lets say for simple sake (and also becuase it is the situation in my game) the two pistols are identicle, and have no recoil compensation. So he fires one shot, does the next shot have a +1 for recoil? or does that wiat till the prime hand fires again? if so, it would be, normal for first 2, and then third shot gets a +1 recoil, and the last gets a +2? or does it go, normal first, and then sencond shot is a +1 recoil mod, and then third shot is +2, and last shot is +3?
If the book gives a good example that explains this i missed it, so if it is in there let me know where. cuase as it is, it really never says when or even how to apply the uncompensated recoil. it is probably counting on me to read into it, and assume that one thing is the same as the other. i think it is the first is the only one without recoil penalty, and that is how i have been doing it. but my players want to know for sure.
any help is apreciated :rotate:
ps- i realize he could jsut get recoil comp and eliminate the problem, but he is very, very, very thick headed. i am not sure he even knows what RC means...

[Glyph]

Basically, you take the uncompensated recoil from each weapon, and apply it to both weapons. So if you had 2 points of uncompensated recoil from one weapon and 1 point of uncompensated recoil from another weapon, you would have 3 points of uncompensated recoil for both weapons. You fire both weapons more or less at the same time - which is why using two weapons doubles your rate of fire. This comes at the expense of accuracy, but characters with ambidexterity and no recoil can still be effective.

Now, for firing two normal pistols (which each have recoil of 1 on the second shot), they would both fire normally the first simple action, since neither pistol has any recoil at that point. The next simple action, though, his next two shots would each have +2 recoil.

I would help him out with some information on the recoil IF his character would understand the concepts involved. Also, if you want to help him out a bit, you could use the rules for high Strength reducing recoil penalties. For pistols, that would eliminate the recoil altogether if he has a decent Strength.

[Bearclaw]

I have a character in my group who does a similar trick with two SMG's.
She's got ambidexterity, so it helps some, but with no SGL, and not being able to use the extended stock, she's dealing with TN's of 4 with the first bursts and 8 with the second bursts, if there's no change in targets. Usually it's more like 4 then 6 then 10 then 12.

[mfb]

here's a crazy question. does recoil comp on a weapon apply to recoil generated by the other weapon? say you've two SMGs, one with RC 3 and one with no RC. you fire the one with no RC, taking a +3 mod. if you fire a single shot with your second SMG--generating no extra recoil--should the RC on that SMG affect the recoil from the burst?

[6thDragon]

Recoil comp from one gun cannot be used by another. The only way you could have recoil comp that is usable by either gun is from your strength attribute, or at least that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Another thing to take into account is the off-hand penalty modifier. If your character isn't Ambidextrous then the GM can rule any action attempted by using your off-hand is more difficult.

Now, I'll freely admit to being a little out-of-date with the rules about this. (The Cannon Companion has the recent ones which work alongside off-hand skills and the Companion's Edges & Flaws stuff.) However, as they used to be (and are still just as effective and quick to resolve) you apply a +2 TN modifer to off-hand actions. Also, there was another +2 TN modifier for using dual weapons that applied to this situation. End result = +2 TN modifier to the primary weapon hand and +4 TN modifier to the off-hand weapon BEFORE you even start to apply recoil modifications.

IE: So that dual pistol thing would be on-hand 1st shot +2; Off-hand 1st shot +4; on-hand 2nd shot +4; off hand 2nd shot +8!

Reson enough to get Recoil compensation or use a high Strength Attribute. And that's even without broaching the effects of autofire here.

As for Auto fire weapons and somewhat related to dual weapon usage - I generated additional TN modifiers depending on the weapon's design.

Some SMG's are hand-to-hand style clips. IE, you hold the weapons grip and insert the clip in its butt. Hence the hand-to-hand ammo feed. This means that the firing chamber is most liely situated at the top of the grip right above your hand where you have the most control over its recoil. (As well as making reloading in the dark easier - just eject spent clip and move your new clip in offf-hand to meet your other hand holdong the weapon) Other types of SMG have the clip inserted forward of the grip (traditional rifle style) or a rare few behind it (bullpup style). To these I apply a +1 TN modifier if not braced with two hands. Occassionally I allow folding shoulder stocks to be used with two weapons if wedged into a firm stance/position - IE you move your whole body to select new firing arcs rather than twist your wrists.

As for rifles, well you really should have two hands to use one of those effectively and firing them Matrix style will only inccur double recoil penalties in my game. I also apply a +2 TN modifier to thoe who don't brance the rifle correctly into their shoulder when firing. IE - firing from the hip. This drops to a +1 TN modifier for Bullpup configured rifles once again due to their design.

[Austere Emancipa...]