Question about spells... Options

[psionghost]

This may be a stupid question, but i was wondering how some spells are physical and Mana based.

1) Now if you cast a physical spell in the astral plane does it still effect the target as normal because its magic? Like Lightning Bolt? If i was in astral combat could i cast that at another mage or spirit in astral with me or only Mana spells?

2) Also does Stun damage work against spirits? (i.e Stunbolt)

3) Also does Invisibility work in Astral space or someone using Astral Perception since it is Mana based and effects the mind of the person? (Also, Does improved work the same way? I wasn't sure but I thought that it might not work since it warps light around the person, which is why it effects tech as well. But wouldn't hold up against astral perception or being in astral space)

I'm sorry if they were answered some where else but didn't find anything when i was looking in the search engine.

4) Also can you weapon Foci a Monowhip? and it would do 8P in Astral Combat? (I wasn't sure since it was a tech weapon, and i figured it had to be basic melee weapon.)

[Drogos]

These have all been answered before...but since I'm too lazy to search for them myself the answers are:

1) Physical Spells have no effect in Astral Space. Only mana spells have any effect on the Astral.

2) Yes

3) Invisiblilty has no effect against Astral Perception beacuase the aura of the spell is visible on the Astral. See #1 for details on Improved Invisibility.

And if I'm wrong I give it 20 minutes before I am corrected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[psionghost]

These have all been answered before...but since I'm too lazy to search for them myself the answers are:

1) Physical Spells have no effect in Astral Space. Only mana spells have any effect on the Astral.

2) Yes

3) Invisiblilty has no effect against Astral Perception beacuase the aura of the spell is visible on the Astral. See #1 for details on Improved Invisibility.

And if I'm wrong I give it 20 minutes before I am corrected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanks for the quick reply, and ok so for the most part I assumed right, Only one i was really unsure of was Mana based Invisibility because it says it effects the Mind of the subject and it can be used on the astral plane? So whats the point of using it if it doesn't work?

Also, Question 4) Can I weapon Foci a Monowhip? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Drogos]

4) Yes, but I wouldn't allow it in my games.

You use it to be invisible to those without access to the Astral Plane and Assensing. It just doesn't make you incapable of being detected.

[psionghost]

4) Yes, but I wouldn't allow it in my games.

You use it to be invisible to those without access to the Astral Plane and Assensing. It just doesn't make you incapable of being detected.

But you can be detected, Since Invisibility effects the mind of the person/subject it would still be, Willpower + Counterspelling. Same values as normal for spirits, and anyone in the astral would have Counterspelling for the most part. Or a spirit using its standard values so it wouldn't be that powerful.

Also anyone making an Assensing Test would notice it as an Illusion would See the hidden Aura of the player.

This is what i get from RAW/BBB

It would be like, seeing something odd in the Astral Plane something out of wack. Or if you make your W+Csp then you see through it, the Assense test would be just to notice that something is there not what.

[Muspellsheimr]

Invisibility does not affect your astral appearance at all. The spell description specifically states it does not hide you from astral perception.

[psionghost]

Invisibility does not affect your astral appearance at all. The spell description specifically states it does not hide you from astral perception.

Ya I know it says that. Your aura is still visible to astral perception. But it also says.

Though mana based Illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test.

So basicly you can cast Invisibility in astral space, and still be undected unless they use an assensing test to find you? thats direct print so thats why i don't understand.

[Apathy]

Invisibility and Improved Invisibility only effect vision. Smell, hearing, thermosense, ultrasound, and astral perception are all unaffected, because none of them are the same as vision.

[WeaverMount]

Tiny nit-pick: thermosense, (A.K.A Thermographic Vision) is actually vision. It uses perception and you can cast spells with it.

[oceansoul]

I think he meant the Thermosense organs from Augmentation, as these are not sight based.

[DireRadiant]

So basicly you can cast Invisibility in astral space, and still be undected unless they use an assensing test to find you? thats direct print so thats why i don't understand.

Invisibility makes you invisible to mundane vision
The invisibility Spell does not work on Assensing.
Assensing will see the targets aura.
Assensing will see the Invisibility Spells Aura.

Assensing is not mundane Vision.
Mundane Vision doesn't see Spell aura.
Mundane Vision does not see target's aura.

[DireRadiant]

Affect A blocks Sense A
Affect A is visible to Sense B
Target is normally detected by Sense A.
Target is normally detected by Sense B.

Sense B will detect Affect A and the Target because it is not countered by Affect A.

[DireRadiant]

Yet More Discussion on Invisibility, wards, masks, and astral concealment

[psionghost]

Yet More Discussion on Invisibility, wards, masks, and astral concealment

Right, I see what your saying but, Also again im using direct information from BBB as stated as above and again now.

"Invisibility affects the minds of the viewers" and then again "Though mana based Illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test"

also the quote saying "Her aura is still visible to astral perception"

I'm not talking about being on the physcial plane and someone viewing you, Im talking about being in AStral Projection and casting Invisibility, which the following is stated above.

By going from BBB all im saying is, That first it effects the MIND which means all senses (besides hearing and smell) since it is a Mana based spell and to perceive someone you would be resisting the spell since it effects your mind, with Willpower.

Secondly, In astral space the spells effects do not change it still effects your mind, So only way to perceive them if you didnt resist the Spell would be by using Assensing to perceive there Aura which is under the effect of an Illusion spell which can only be "viewed" again as above, by successfully making that test.

Again the above is the point Im trying to understand and make, IF it is different or someone is reading it as such, i merely pointing out that the above text from BBB.

[Muspellsheimr]

Ya I know it says that. Your aura is still visible to astral perception. But it also says.

Though mana based Illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test.

So basicly you can cast Invisibility in astral space, and still be undected unless they use an assensing test to find you? thats direct print so thats why i don't understand.

This spell makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual senses (including low-light, thermographic, and other senses that rely on the visual spectrum). The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, etc.) Her aura is still visible to astral perception.

Invisibility does not hide your aura at all on the astral plane. It does not matter if the spells aura is visible or not, your aura is.

[Apathy]

By going from BBB all im saying is, That first it effects the MIND which means all senses (besides hearing and smell) since it is a Mana based spell and to perceive someone you would be resisting the spell since it effects your mind, with Willpower.

Invisibility does not effect all senses. It is not a multi-sense illusion. Invisibility only effects mundane vision. Astral perception is not mundane vision, therefore it is not effected by the spell.

You could theoretically design a spell that specifically targets astral perception in the same way that invisibility targets vision and silence targets hearing. Then we could have discussions about whether the person's aura and the spell's aura were both concealed.

But as written, invisibility does absolutely nothing to prevent your detection on the astral plane.

[raggedhalo]

The Mana-based Invisibility spell affects other people's minds so that they cannot see you. They can still hear you, smell you, etc. The senses used on the astral plane are explicitly not sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste; they are a magical sixth sense. So a mage on the astral who casts Invisibility gains nothing, aside from some Drain and actually making themselves more conspicuous.

I still think that Improved Invisibility should have no effect on Ultrasound, though.

[Stahlseele]

isn't normal invisibility basically just telling someone:"don't believe your eyes, he is not there!" and makes you BELIEVE that he is not there? it does not STOP you from seeing it, it just makes you not believe it . . kinda like the Somebody Else's Problem Field?

[psionghost]

Invisibility does not hide your aura at all on the astral plane. It does not matter if the spells aura is visible or not, your aura is.

I'm not saying it does, But Normal Invisibility effects the mind, and states that in its description. So regardless of astral perception or not your mind is still being effected, from the spell and its tell you that no one is there. You can still see the person fine, just the spell effects your mind as if your not there. Normal sensors cameras, etc can still see you.

Again even in astral space you wouldn't be there period. Your aura would, but since its an Illusion spell it states that the aura can only be seen if you make a successful test for Assenseing.

Thats what im trying to say, the spell doesn;t make you blind it makes your mind think your not there which effects any visual sense to perceive the character. It says only your aura is there, but under the rules for Illusion spells you can only see them IF you make a successful test.

But if you don't make that test you can't see the Aura. Cause the spell is only detected on a successful test, and the spell effects your mind telling it its not there.

Its like using it on the physical plane and against two people. One person makes his test so he can see you the other doesn't. The other person still can't see you regardless of what that person says.

The rules don't change for the perception, without making a successful test to perceive him you still can't, and his Aura is covered by the Illusion spell, which can only be detected by successful test.

[Muspellsheimr]

No - the spell specifically states it affects only their visual perception, and specifically excludes all other forms, including astral.

For the last time, it does not hide your aura in any way!


EDIT:
Let me put it this way, sense you are so intent on the "affects the mind" part. The spell does not tell them "I am not here", it tells them "You cannot see me". There is a significant difference.

[Apathy]

If the spell worked the way you described, then the guard wouldn't notice the 'click-clop, click-clop' you made because you forgot to change out of tap shoes after dance class. They wouldn't notice the overwhelming stench wafting off you because you snuck in via the sewer. They would disregard their thermosense cyberware and echolocation cyberware, which would both register your presence as you tip-toed by. Instead, Invisibility does none of those things. Invisibility only effects how your mind processes mundane visual input. Think of it more like a magical filter that blocks specific stimulus along the optic nerve.

The way you're [incorrectly, I believe] imagining the spell works is more like the Disregard spell from SR2. With that spell, you saw the subject but were manipulated into believing that they belonged there ("these are not the droids you're looking for..."). You could make a spell like that in SR4, but Invisibility is not that spell.

[psionghost]

No - the spell specifically states it affects only their visual perception, and specifically excludes all other forms, including astral.

For the last time, it does not hide your aura in any way!


EDIT:
Let me put it this way, sense you are so intent on the "affects the mind" part. The spell does not tell them "I am not here", it tells them "You cannot see me". There is a significant difference.

I'm not saying that i was right, i was merely pointing out that is how its stated in the book, all mana based illusions affect the mind on pg.201. Also in the description of Invisibility it also states it affects the mind. pg.202

In the same section under Illusion spells, that they can be cast on the astral plane, and the spells aura can only be detected by a successful test. And must be resisted by willpower + counterspelling. All I'm saying is that the description of the spell and Illusion spells that all mana based illusions affect the targets mind, which under the section seems to suggest that it could work in theory.

I understand that Astral Perception isn't considered a normal visual means, Hence why someone who was blind could still see using astral perception.

I'm just looking at it this way, when you considered visual perception regardless of sight or astral its still visual perception, yes you could hear him, and smell him. But if the mind was blocked of all forms of visual perception of that person then it sounds like it includes any and all forms that the mind processes.

Again, I have always played it as you couldn't, But I'm just saying from the way its worded you could interpret it differently. As the mind is whats processing all your senses including astral.

Because other Mana Illusion spells can affect you in astral space, unless you see through the spell. Just seemed off to me the way it was writing in the BBB.

[Muspellsheimr]

I'm just looking at it this way, when you considered visual perception regardless of sight or astral its still visual perception, yes you could hear him, and smell him. But if the mind was blocked of all forms of visual perception of that person then it sounds like it includes any and all forms that the mind processes.

Again, I have always played it as you couldn't, But I'm just saying from the way its worded you could interpret it differently. As the mind is whats processing all your senses including astral.

From the way it is worded, you cannot interpret it that way, regarldess of anything, because it specifically states it does not work that way. Even if the base rules said it did, the spell, by specifically stating otherwise, would be an exception to those rules.

Even further, you have even acknowledged that astral perception is not a visual sense - so even if it was not specifically excluded from working in the spell description, it still would not hide your aura from astral perception.

[Glyph]

There really isn't the disconnect that you imagine, psionghost.

You can cast mana-based illusion spells on the astral plane, but invisibility won't do anything, because it only affects one sense, and not the sense used for astral perception. The text dealing with that specific spell is crystal clear. But invisibility is not the only mana-based illusion spell. Phantasm, for example, would work just fine.

[Zaranthan]

But if the mind was blocked of all forms of visual perception of that person then it sounds like it includes any and all forms that the mind processes.

Astral perception is not a form of sight any more than taste is. Stop being obtuse.