Chick Run, no, not Chicken Run Options

[Stahlseele]

something just registered to me after snooping through unwired:
since when and why the hell are almost if not all references to a character suddenly female?
for example:"Trodes allow a user to access VR without the invasiveness of cyberware, allowing an adept to keep HER Magic rating intact."
i'd say this is done in about 90% of all cases like this one . .
i ain't pro or contra, i just wanna know freaking why the frag . .

[Dumori]

Yeah doesn't the fount few pages of unwired still have the we use he only to simplify the writing disclaimer?
edit
Nope not in unwired just checked

[coolgrafix]

a) chicks are cool
b) maybe the text is left over from an older edition where she was the pronoun of choice, and the editors missed it
c) maybe the writer used he and the editor, perhaps working on his/her (har) first SR4 piece wasn't up on the new guidelines
d) maybe the whole thing is a house of cards with no direction, guidance, or future

I think it's "a" above. =)

[Kingboy]

Because somewhere in the 90's the population at large apparently forgot about the existence of gender neutral pronouns. Couple that with the idiotic excesses of PCness and you get dumb crap like the AFMBE books (which I otherwise generally like) where they switch between he/she each chapter in order to appear "balanced".

The example you stated above can quite easily be written "Trodes allow a user to access VR without the invasiveness of cyberware, allowing an adept to keep their Magic rating intact."

[hyzmarca]

Actually, it's because the vast majority of RPG player characters in all systems and settings are lesbian females in improbably revealing armor.

[Stahlseele]

which is 2 letters longer than her and his and if you have enough of those left overs they make up enough space for a whole paragraph, so THAT particular word is unlikely to be used . .
but still, i would like the switching between female and male every chapter better . . and check out other SR4 books, in most cases it's female pronoun . .

[Tiger Eyes]

since when and why the hell are almost if not all references to a character suddenly female?
for example:"Trodes allow a user to access VR without the invasiveness of cyberware, allowing an adept to keep HER Magic rating intact."
i'd say this is done in about 90% of all cases like this one . .

A quick PDF search for instances of "he" vs "she" & "his" vs "her" shows:

He=277 / His= 267
She= 223 / Her = 230

Of course, I didn't weed out in-character fiction, which obviously accounts for some of that. But I think that the male pronoun is still dominant in Unwired. Stahlseele, you can rest safely now, we women are not overtaking SR. Yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Kingboy]

Content does not implicitly dictate typography. It supplies constraints that must be worked with, yes. The simple substitution of their/they/etc for he/she is not going to make it so that a skilled typesetter is forced to suddenly add a strangely placed extra page every chapter or two. That argument is akin to saying we should all use mobile phone texting abbreviations for all internet communications because it takes less letters, therfore using less bandwidth, allowing us to communicate "faster".

Of course that is predicated on the idea that the books are layed out by a skilled typesetter, which practically none of the SR4 books show any sign of, as evinced by nearly all of the gear charts. I do so love having to track down whether the description of an item I am looking at is several pages before or after the chart I am looking at before fully knowing what it does...

[Stahlseele]

. . damn, i really forgot about there being the option of searching for a certain word in pdf files o.o
time for me to hit the hay i think x.x . .

[dionysus]

Because somewhere in the 90's the population at large apparently forgot about the existence of gender neutral pronouns. Couple that with the idiotic excesses of PCness and you get dumb crap like the AFMBE books (which I otherwise generally like) where they switch between he/she each chapter in order to appear "balanced".

The example you stated above can quite easily be written "Trodes allow a user to access VR without the invasiveness of cyberware, allowing an adept to keep their Magic rating intact."

I don't mean to be a grammar nazi, but I've been corrected on this before myself. "They" and its ilk are plural pronouns, and aren't AFAIK universally accepted as correct grammar when referring to a single person. The simple fact is that English has no singluar, third-person gender-neutral pronouns. (if there are those who know more of grammar than I do, please correct me).

[Larme]

Dionysus is right. It is technically incorrect to refer to one person as "they." The devs would need to make everything plural. Instead of "when a runner does X, he..." they would need to say "when runners do X, they..." And referring to characters collectively is just not part of the RPG lingo. By nature of the system, characters don't act collectively, they act one at a time. So why refer to them plurally? Is gender neutrality something inherently useful? I can't see why.

Proper grammar dictates that when you're referring to a single person of indeterminate gender, you pick 'he' or 'she.' It really doesn't matter which one you pick. I think it's popular among progressive people to use "she" because "he" was the default for a long long time. But if anyone cares, they need to get a hobby. Or, if their hobby is Shadowrun, they need to play more Shadowrun and do less quibbling over grammar.

[hyzmarca]

I don't mean to be a grammar nazi, but I've been corrected on this before myself. "They" and its ilk are plural pronouns, and aren't AFAIK universally accepted as correct grammar when referring to a single person. The simple fact is that English has no singluar, third-person gender-neutral pronouns. (if there are those who know more of grammar than I do, please correct me).

There's 'yo'. It's a single-person gender neutral pronoun.

[Dumori]

There's hir but I'm unsure if its in wide enough use for a published book.

[Jackstand]

I don't mean to be a grammar nazi, but I've been corrected on this before myself. "They" and its ilk are plural pronouns, and aren't AFAIK universally accepted as correct grammar when referring to a single person. The simple fact is that English has no singluar, third-person gender-neutral pronouns. (if there are those who know more of grammar than I do, please correct me).

'It.' 'It' is a singular, third-person, gender-neutral pronoun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) You generally don't use it for a person, but you certainly could. Still, it's better than 'Ze,' which some people will put forward.

[hyzmarca]

There's hir but I'm unsure if its in wide enough use for a published book.

Hir and shi aren't gender neutral; they refer to true hermaphrodites.

[Dumori]

true but they could be use for a none exsitant PC.

[Jackstand]

They're just as bad as 'Ze,' though. Seriously. It's an assault on language!

[Heath Robinson]

Still, it's better than 'Ze,' which some people will put forward.

They're just as bad as 'Ze,' though. Seriously. It's an assault on language!

I wonder as to the intent behind selecting that as a gender-neutral pronoun ~ze.

No, don't worry about it. It is, as you no doubt suspect, a crappy inside joke.

[Dumori]

so are many words in use. Like a word for each prong on a deer's antler is needed. Words are needed for a lot of stuff some just sound so bad I'd never use them ze, hir, shi and moneys are a few on my list. Where would we be with out words some people dislike?

[Lebo77]

Edit: Removed for total redundancy. I should learn to read the rest of the darn thread.

[Chrysalis]

They, them, their, theirs, are often used in referring back to singular pronominals (as each, one, anybody, everybody), or to singular nouns or phrases (as a parent, neither Jack nor Jill), of which the doubtful or double gender causes awkwardness. It is a real deficiency in English that we have no pronoun, like the French soi, son, to stand for him-or-her, his-or-her (for he-or-she French is no better off than English). Our view, though we admit it to be disputable, is clear—that they, their, &c., should never be resorted to, as in the examples presently to be given they are. With a view to avoiding them, it should be observed that (a) the possessive of one (indefinite pronoun) is one's, and that of one (numeral pronoun) is either his, or her, or its (One does not forget one's own name: I saw one of them drop his cigar, her muff, or its leaves); (b) he, his, him, may generally be allowed to stand for the common gender; the particular aversion shown to them by Miss Ferrier in the examples may be referred to her sex; and, ungallant as it may seem, we shall probably persist in refusing women their due here as stubbornly as Englishmen continue to offend the Scots by saying England instead of Britain. © Sentences may however easily be constructed (Neither John nor Mary knew his own mind) in which his is undeniably awkward. The solution is then what we so often recommend, to do a little exercise in paraphrase (John and Mary were alike irresolute, for instance). (d) Where legal precision is really necessary, he or she may be written in full. Corrections according to these rules will be appended in brackets to the examples.

Anybody else who have only themselves in view.—Richardson. (has ... himself)

Ce n'est que le premier pas qui coûte, in novel-writing as in carrying one's head in their hand.—S. Ferrier. (one's ... one's)

The feelings of the parent upon committing the cherished object of their cares and affections to the stormy sea of life.—S. Ferrier. (his)

But he never allowed one to feel their own deficiencies, for he never appeared to be aware of them himself—S. Ferrier. (one's)

A difference of opinion which leaves each free to act according to their own feelings.—S. Ferrier. (his)

Suppose each of us try our hands at it.—S. Ferrier. (tries his hand; or, if all of us are women, tries her hand)

Everybody is discontented with their lot in life.—Beaconsfield. (his)

Fowler, King's English, 1908

Stylistically using one continuously becomes wearisome and confusing, for that reason he as the gender neutral pronoun has continued to be used. With the rise of the politically correct, several alternatives have been given which have ranged from the ludicrous to downright strange. A more comprehensive and funnier rendition of gender pronouns can be found in the introduction of the Cyberpunk Handbook.

The one which has been settled on is that of rephrasing to avoid gender and bias and the use of he/she, his/her in places where rephrasing is either impossible or cumbersome.

In roleplaying games the issue of gender non-neutrality of the third person pronoun was addressed in D&D third edition where he and she were used in each paragraph separately. It became such an editorial problem of switching between the two that in later books the pronouns were used interchangeably causing some confusion as to the subject's gender as it would often change between sentences, leading to the natural assumption of a possible subject change as well.

The new version of D&D, fourth edition, sidesteps this entire debate by using the second person accusative form you.

Personally, I find it all strangely fascinating.

[Wounded Ronin]

The example you stated above can quite easily be written "Trodes allow a user to access VR without the invasiveness of cyberware, allowing an adept to keep their Magic rating intact."

According to my high school grammar textbook that's actually incorrect. It would be correct, albeit clunky, to say, "...allowing an adept to keep his or her Magic rating intact."

[hyzmarca]

In roleplaying games the issue of gender non-neutrality of the third person pronoun was addressed in D&D third edition where he and she were used in each paragraph separately. It became such an editorial problem of switching between the two that in later books the pronouns were used interchangeably causing some confusion as to the subject's gender as it would often change between sentences, leading to the natural assumption of a possible subject change as well.

Given potential results on the Wild Magic table, it is quite possible for random mid-paragraph gender changes to be factually correct in regards to certain editions of D&D.

[Wounded Ronin]

Hyzmarca wins this thread.

[Jackstand]

The new version of D&D, fourth edition, sidesteps this entire debate by using the second person accusative form you.

'You' is actually nominative, too, mind you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)