Chick Run, no, not Chicken Run Options

[knasser]

Now in the specific case of what gender neutral pronouns should be used, the English speaking world has not reached consensus. In my personal Californian Dialect the answer is "they/their" for "him/his." But in other linguistic groups it is not. Personally I hope for the ascendancy of the They/Their position because it would be easier for me personally, but there are lots of other possibilities. Some traditionalists still stubbornly hold onto using him/his but honestly I can virtually guaranty you that in the future that is going to look even stranger than it already does.

Interesting. I spoke without realising I was biased. My English was learnt in the UK and I learnt their was correct as a singular gender neutral. At any rate, regional dialects are being supplanted by online dialects. There are even break downs by medium, as most of my friends use txt speak when txting me, but if u did it ona forum, it wld lk way 2 ugly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What's more interesting is how you do this in-game. There are creatures *cough*dragons*cough* that it is rather hard to tell the sex of. Does one simply use he or she or their until you've discretely found out? And if the dragon overhears you, are they sensitive on the subject? Come to think of it, how would you discretely find out?

[hyzmarca]

In the opening to TNG, the issue is more species inclusiveness than gender inclusiveness. Using the human specific term "man" just sounds speciest when the Federation consists of hundreds of worlds and dozens of species and a Klingon and an android are in your bridge crew.

[hyzmarca]

The booming voice reverberates in your brain as the great golden wyrm manipulates the mana permeating your synapses. The knowledge that this creature could probably give you a fatal aneurysm just by speaking to you this way is not lost on you as you try to hastily formulate an appropriate answer to Lofwyr's question, "Are you looking at my junk?"

[Jackstand]

Interesting. I spoke without realising I was biased. My English was learnt in the UK and I learnt their was correct as a singular gender neutral. At any rate, regional dialects are being supplanted by online dialects. There are even break downs by medium, as most of my friends use txt speak when txting me, but if u did it ona forum, it wld lk way 2 ugly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What's more interesting is how you do this in-game. There are creatures *cough*dragons*cough* that it is rather hard to tell the sex of. Does one simply use he or she or their until you've discretely found out? And if the dragon overhears you, are they sensitive on the subject? Come to think of it, how would you discretely find out?

I think that the personality of dragons tends to be in line with their gender, so you would likely be able to guess. I don't know whether or not I'd want to stake my life on it, though, by calling Lofwyr 'ma'am.'

[Chrysalis]

What's more interesting is how you do this in-game. There are creatures *cough*dragons*cough* that it is rather hard to tell the sex of. Does one simply use he or she or their until you've discretely found out? And if the dragon overhears you, are they sensitive on the subject? Come to think of it, how would you discretely find out?

Dragons like all non-human creatures use the pronoun "it". Only if they are pets for whom the owner has a strong emotional bond with does one use he or she with. The he or she refer to the relationship between owner and pet.

A dragon is an it unless you wish to invoke the special relationship between pet and owner.

I would wish to emphasize that language is governed by arbitrary, tacit understandings of substructure (also known as grammar) between interlocutors.

[MaxHunter]

being the pet who? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MaxHunter]

I would wish to point out that the use of he or she is has gone beyond an issue of grammar and is now a question of stylistics.

I was looking through the Chicago manual of style and the MLA handbook with recomendations from the APA on use of gender. I even looked at a bit of history of gendered nouns in Old English. Unfortunately this is a matter which has no easy answer and is an oft common conversation topic over a coffee among my colleagues.

(boldface mine) Now I wonder what you do for living, my dear. I really have a hard time picturing my colleagues engaged in such conversation.

Cheers

Max

[knasser]

I think that the personality of dragons tends to be in line with their gender, so you would likely be able to guess. I don't know whether or not I'd want to stake my life on it, though, by calling Lofwyr 'ma'am.'

Jackstand - I would absolutely love to know what personality traits you would use to gender-categorise a dragon. And what precisely about the megamanical Lofwyr puts him or her in the female camp? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ; (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Dragons like all non-human creatures use the pronoun "it". Only if they are pets for whom the owner has a strong emotional bond with does one use he or she with. The he or she refer to the relationship between owner and pet.

A dragon is an it unless you wish to invoke the special relationship between pet and owner.

Heh. That makes me think that the issue is more whether dragons bother to refer to metahumans as anything other than it. Overhearing a couple of dragons referring to you as "it" would be a nice in-character touch.

And as regards the special relationship between owner and pet, I guess that means it's a bad sign if a dragon does start using your appropriate gender pronoun.

@hyzmarca... I'm really not sure what answer would be least likely to get me killed. And as dragons are quadrupeds, fairly close to the ground, I'd really have had to go to some effort to get a look, I would think.

[Jackstand]

I meant that, to me, Lofwyr seems to be very much a more masculine personality. A character could get it wrong, though, and make what may likely be his final blunder.

[knasser]

I meant that, to me, Lofwyr seems to be very much a more masculine personality. A character could get it wrong, though, and make what may likely be his final blunder.

I don't know... now that you've said it, I kind of like the notion that Lofwyr is actually female. Though that would make her a blonde, wouldn't it?

*runs* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hermit]

And just more interesting to help visualize it. the too pc 'him/her' 'she'/he' is just grating to look at. So what if half the pronouns are female? We make up half the population of the world and IF it causes some male to feel put on because his gender does not dominate the text, then you know how women have felt for centuries.

I usually do not mind this stuff but if someone is so bend to feel threatened by the number of pronouns because it 'feels' like it is leaning in a certain way, and he was not put out when it favored men, it is just wrong.

1) I was hoping for a run on a shoe store too, and disappointed by this thread.
2) I don't think it's a nescessity to sanitize language according to whatever doublethink is currently in fashion, but I am pretty conservative, especially in the langage I use. I don't mind that so much either, though.
3) Still, forming the language according to one's own political agenda does reek a lot like NewSpeak to me. It's just stupid to politicise society like that.

@Jack Sorry, deleted the quote. I had misread it. Yes, I do agree with you.

[Jackstand]

Spanish, Italian, French, Latin and Greek, off the top of my head.

[hyzmarca]

In my opinion, if you don't know how to address a dragon you should take refuge in audacity and hope that your apparant arrogance either amuses or impresses them.

Thus, instead of Herr or Frau, you just refer to the big gold guy as Loffie-poo.

[FrankTrollman]

Spanish, Italian, French, Latin and Greek, off the top of my head.

That's because those are all Romance languages. Deutsch, for example is a Germanic language and has a whole neuter category which takes over when you don't know or care.

English is composed of Saxon, which is a Germanic language; and Norman, which is a Romance language. And that's where the trouble comes in. Both methodologies are historically correct and dominant in different dialects.

-Frank

[hermit]

Use pluralis maiestatis.

[Jackstand]

Well, the first four are. Greek isn't a romance language, but that's beside the point. Also, I'll admit, I'm not familiar with how it's handled in modern Greek. I only know ancient Greek.

[Chrysalis]

(boldface mine) Now I wonder what you do for living, my dear. I really have a hard time picturing my colleagues engaged in such conversation.

Cheers

Max

I teach English part-time as a second language at the University of Oulu, Finland. I also work as a proofreader of English (primarily Academic texts) and I also do translations from Finnish to English through their language services there.

My major is English with minors in literature and medieval studies (my speciality is Anglo-Saxon studies from the University of Glasgow).

I finished this spring my qualifications to teach K-12 in English and I am continuing with a university teaching degree next fall.

I can speak English, Finnish, Russian and I can read German, Latin, and ancient Greek.

My current project is working on a journal article on anglo-saxon metallurgy and sword construction with an emphasis on charting out the reason why they are considered special in anglo-saxon literature.

I am currently at the office looking through Quirk and Greenbaum's A Student's Grammar of the English Language and cursing that I had to return their more definitive A University Grammar of English.

I am not a great student of English, but I haeavily rely on authoratative sources.

[WhiteWolf]

Well, the first four are. Greek isn't a romance language, but that's beside the point. Also, I'll admit, I'm not familiar with how it's handled in modern Greek. I only know ancient Greek.

While Greek is not a Romance Lanaguage it does have a lot of influence in it. A lot of Latin derives from Greek or had a major influence in the structure of words. I have heard from those who speak both state it is best to learn Greek first and then Latin so you are able to understand where and how words in Latin came to be.

[Jackstand]

That they're close cousins with a common ancestor language is really more the case than that Latin developed from Greek. There are a lot of Greek loan words in Latin, but those aren't really the same thing, and come from the close association of the speakers of the two languages, and because many educated Romans were bilingual, than from a linguistic heredity.

[MJBurrage]

Dragons like all non-human creatures use the pronoun "it". Only if they are pets for whom the owner has a strong emotional bond with does one use he or she with. The he or she refer to the relationship between owner and pet.

A dragon is an it unless you wish to invoke the special relationship between pet and owner.

As a an American with a British father (and annual trips across the pond for over twenty years), that is not my experience with English.

"It" is used for animals when the animals gender is unknown or inconsequential. Most people I know would refer to a bull (cow, moose, etc.) as he, or an animal mother as she. Furthermore in Shadowrun I am pretty sure that any sentient is considered a person (at least legally) and the specific pronoun he or she would be used when known.

My savvy runners would never refer to a dragon, sasquatch, etc. as "it" since that would regulate the subject to the level of object rather than person. For the same reasons, I do like the idea of a dragon using "it" for a human, putting them in the role of object rather than person.

[WhiteWolf]

That they're close cousins with a common ancestor language is really more the case than that Latin developed from Greek. There are a lot of Greek loan words in Latin, but those aren't really the same thing, and come from the close association of the speakers of the two languages, and because many educated Romans were bilingual, than from a linguistic heredity.

Well if they are on loan then I would hate to see how much is owed in interest! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Would the word "loan" not indicate the intention to return? (asking for clarification here; nothing more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

See I would still argue this because, regarless of who associated with who, my understanding is you don't find very many latin words, if any, in the Greek language; but you do find a lot of Greek words in the Latin language, and many of those were changed to appear Latin.

What is the common ancestor language?

[WhiteWolf]

You know, I wonder just how big this thread is going to get. I have seen many points to argue so I can see the potential of the thread becoming huge, and some of the arguments I would LOVE to discuss with a few of you in person; because I think the conversation would not only be interesting but enlightening, for one or both of us, as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

[kanislatrans]

In my opinion, if you don't know how to address a dragon you should take refuge in audacity and hope that your apparant arrogance either amuses or impresses them.

Thus, instead of Herr or Frau, you just refer to the big gold guy as Loffie-poo.

and Loffie-poo is what you would probably become. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[FrankTrollman]

Would the word "loan" not indicate the intention to return?

Loan words go just one way. They are called loan words I think because the original language does not lose them in the transaction.

So in English our Saxon peasant ancestors raised cows and our Norman overlords ate beef. Loan words from the Germanic and the French respectively.

-Frank

[Chrysalis]

As a an American with a British father (and annual trips across the pond for over twenty years), that is not my experience with English.

"It" is used for animals when the animals gender is unknown or inconsequential. Most people I know would refer to a bull (cow, moose, etc.) as he, or an animal mother as she. Furthermore in Shadowrun I am pretty sure that any sentient is considered a person (at least legally) and the specific pronoun he or she would be used when known.

My savvy runners would never refer to a dragon, sasquatch, etc. as "it" since that would regulate the subject to the level of object rather than person. For the same reasons, I do like the idea of a dragon using "it" for a human, putting them in the role of object rather than person.

You do have a point. English according to Quirk and Greenbaum's A Student's Grammar of the English Language distinguishes animals into two groups: familiar animals and less familiar animals. The former embrace the range of animals, birds, etc. in which human society takes a special interest, and which specifically impinge on familiar experience (for example, in farming or as domestic pets). Many of the nouns for these occur in male and female pairs as with personal nouns, often with he she as the reference pronoun though usually that which as the relative:

The is the bull which has a brand on his/ (its) back.
This is the cow which had her/ (its) first calf when she/ (it) was already seven years old.

Other such pairs include ram - ewe, stallion - mare, hen - cock (erel), and there are some with morphological marking, as in lion - lioness, tiger - tigress. But frequently, despite such pairs as dog - bitch, one of the two is used with dual gender, or an item outside of the pairing (such as sheep beside ram - ewe) so operates:

This horse is two years old; isn't she beautiful?
This horse has sired his first foal.

But less familiar animals constitute by far the majority of creatures in the animate world. Squirrels, ants, starlings, and moths may be fancifully referred to as he or she, but for the most part are treated grammatically as though they were inanimate:

Did you see the spider? It's hanging from the beam.
Did you see that balloon? It's hanging from the beam.


For further reading I can recommend Susannge Wagner's Inaugural Doctoral disseration, Gender in English pronouns Myth and reality.