Complex Forms, We need a rule that works. Options

[Nightwalker450]

I love my Technomancer, but I really wish I had more Complex Forms. Unfortunately its unlikely that I'll ever get any more than what I started with, even though my Technomancer now has almost 120 karma going for him.

At creation I'm fine with what its costing me, I can get a well rounded set, and thread some of the less urgent ones until I get them.

Currently Complex forms cost 2 points for the first rank, and karma equal to each new rating.
So the cost for a new complex form from scratch is:
rating 1 = 2 karma
rating 2 = 4 karma
rating 3 = 7 karma
rating 4 = 11 karma
rating 5 = 16 karma
rating 6 = 22 karma

So if you take 1 karma = 1 BP = 5,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you get 110,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a 6,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) rating 6 program.
Interesting note that 110,000 karma is pretty close to what it costs a hacker to get all programs at rating 6 during creation.
There are currently 27 complex forms, assuming you start with 10 just to get the other 17 up to rating 3 will cost you 119 karma.
Anything rating 4 or below your likely to thread anyways since its not going to stand up very well when its needed, which will impose the -2 to everything else you might possibly do.

The new "Treat Complex Forms as Spells" optional rule, doesn't help fix this, it just changes the issue.
Now your Technomancer can ONLY use about 1/3 of the total programs at creation (no threading from scratch), and every time they want to use their exploit program they're going to have to resist 6 Stun from fading. It usually takes me 2 or 3 passes to hack something on the fly. So this doesn't work either.

So here's what I'm thinking for a house rule.
2 karma for level 1
1 karma per level up to 3
2 karma per level up to 6
5 karma for beyond 6

This breaks down to
rating 1 = 2 karma
rating 2 = 3 karma
rating 3 = 4 karma
rating 4 = 6 karma
rating 5 = 8 karma
rating 6 = 10 karma
rating 7 = 15 karma
rating 8 = 20 karma
...

Its not as simple as before, but it cuts the price in half for a rating 6 complex form.

[Dr Funfrock]

My rule has been pretty simple for a while now: Technomancers don't use complex forms. Whenever a program is called for, Technomancers substitute Resonance.
All the other limitations of complex forms still apply. Threading is removed as a rule, with the theory being that Technos don't "learn complex forms" or stuff like, they just thread everything, all the time (don't imagine that any of the costs or penalties of threading apply; I mean when I say I'm chucking the rules for threading entirely, it's just a cool name and fluff excuse for why Technos can have programs that they haven't even heard of.)

Unwired throws a spanner in this, what with program options. I might recycle "Complex Forms" as a name for Technomancer program options, and have them learn them with a BP / Karma cost. So you get all the programs free, but fancy stuff like program options, which essentially involve more in the way of precise application, the Techno has to learn.

In general I've found this rule brings Technomancer karma / BP costs much more in line with that of Hackers. If you use the "Program caps hits on Attribute + Skill roll" house rule then both Hackers and Technomancers need high mental stats. Since Technomancers now have Biofeedback filters at Resonance, they don't need to pimp Charisma anymore, so it's just Logic, Intuition and Willpower they need to pump up, more or less the same as Hackers (who can get away with low Intuition, but then Intuition is handy for so much stuff anyway).

The final costs for a Technomancer are still a lot higher (even without counting Resonance group), but they're within the realms of "Worth it for the awesome shit that Echoes get you now that Unwired is out". In time Technomancers are just so much better than Hackers it's unreal.

Final point: Make hacking program availability Rating x 3, rather than Rating x 2. This caps Hackers at Rating 4 programs at start-up. Brings them down to a level where a Rating 4 system is reasonably challenging, and gives Technomancers another advantage in being able to higher programs out of char-gen. Combined with the sheer flexibility of a Technomancer, they're well worth the cost this way.

[Jaid]

strictly speaking, unless/until it's clarified, a technomancer can emulate a rating 6 program (if they can get their hands on one) for 6 karma. of course, it's possible this was unintentional, but it is still possible, as written.

incidentally, i personally would recommend changing the threading rules such that you don't roll to see how well you thread. you just decide what you want to thread to (capped by your software(threading) skill, if you so choose, in addition to the regular limits from resonance) and resist fading as appropriate. given that fading is apparently a non-action, this just seems to be the most reasonable option... plan B is for the TM to just keep going until they get the desired roll anyways, and choose to use 0 hits from their previous attempts so they don't suffer any fading. may as well just skip all that unnecessary rolling, and go straight to fading resistance imo.

[Nightwalker450]

strictly speaking, unless/until it's clarified, a technomancer can emulate a rating 6 program (if they can get their hands on one) for 6 karma. of course, it's possible this was unintentional, but it is still possible, as written.

incidentally, i personally would recommend changing the threading rules such that you don't roll to see how well you thread. you just decide what you want to thread to (capped by your software(threading) skill, if you so choose, in addition to the regular limits from resonance) and resist fading as appropriate. given that fading is apparently a non-action, this just seems to be the most reasonable option... plan B is for the TM to just keep going until they get the desired roll anyways, and choose to use 0 hits from their previous attempts so they don't suffer any fading. may as well just skip all that unnecessary rolling, and go straight to fading resistance imo.

This is how we've been doing the threading rules. With the added stipulation, that I can only thread up to Software + Submersions.

I'd like to say that my GM is very trusting of me, and has allowed me to try various formats for threading till I could find something that I felt was balanced, and by far this is the best I've come up with.

[Dr Funfrock]

strictly speaking, unless/until it's clarified, a technomancer can emulate a rating 6 program (if they can get their hands on one) for 6 karma. of course, it's possible this was unintentional, but it is still possible, as written.

incidentally, i personally would recommend changing the threading rules such that you don't roll to see how well you thread. you just decide what you want to thread to (capped by your software(threading) skill, if you so choose, in addition to the regular limits from resonance) and resist fading as appropriate. given that fading is apparently a non-action, this just seems to be the most reasonable option... plan B is for the TM to just keep going until they get the desired roll anyways, and choose to use 0 hits from their previous attempts so they don't suffer any fading. may as well just skip all that unnecessary rolling, and go straight to fading resistance imo.

Just use the complex forms as spells rule in Unwired.

It seems silly for Techno's to be resisting fading for running a rating 5 program, until you consider that it's a Fading of 2, and Resonance is one of the resistance stats. A Resonance 4 Techno with any one mental stat at 4 can buy the hits. That means that under most circumstances you just assume you're using programs at the highest rating that you can buy off the fading for and, when you need better, you up the rating and risk of actually taking some fading.

[Nightwalker450]

Just use the complex forms as spells rule in Unwired.

It seems silly for Techno's to be resisting fading for running a rating 5 program, until you consider that it's a Fading of 2, and Resonance is one of the resistance stats. A Resonance 4 Techno with any one mental stat at 4 can buy the hits. That means that under most circumstances you just assume you're using programs at the highest rating that you can buy off the fading for and, when you need better, you up the rating and risk of actually taking some fading.

I didn't notice that as spells, they cut the fading in half. But the real issue is that they can't use a program they don't have the complex form for. So at creation they have 1/3 of the programs a hacker does. And he's going to have to resist fading every time he uses that program. How exactly would stealth work? Actually according to that rule it wouldn't because it isn't a Matrix Action, its somebody else trying to spot you. How do I run stealth while hacking into a node? Do I need to resist the fading from both each pass I am working on fast hacking?

[Dr Funfrock]

Yeah, it's a rule that has some problems. I'd suggest letting Technos sustain a number of programs equal to their Resonance before taking penalties, or something like that. I dunno. I've already outlined my own rules for running Technomancers in my first reply, I was just suggesting a useful alternative to Jaid's idea.

[Blog]

I dont have unwired yet; But my GM has been houseruling the "CF = spell" for over a year and it has worked well. This is what we have been using:

1) Resonance + Appropriate skill (we have a table) = dice pool
2) Decide 'rating/force' (ie max possible hits)
3) Roll and count hits
4) Resist fading based on table (base DV is function of the 'threaded' rating, some CF are easier then others)
5) Sustain for however long you desire; while sustaining and 'using actions' on that CF; it will automatically generate hits equal to what was rolled in #3.

Works great for us as it then comes down to one roll (which of course edge can apply to)

New CF cost the same as a new spell. Dont have the CF cannot thread it.

[Dashifen]

What Blog has described is something that I've been thinking about myself. I haven't decided the Fading Value of each Complex Form (e.g., the Fading Value of a Edit might be R/2 while the Fading Value of BlackHammer might be R/2+2), but I've been thinking of using that in my own games. My fear is that I'll get too used to my house rules and reduce my effectiveness as a demo team member when running at cons and the TMs in my games (three since I started running SR4) have never complained so I'm not sure there's as big a problem for me as there my be for other campaigns.

[Blog]

Its worked out really well for me. I have a reference sheet with all my various actions, what goes into what roll. Then this large table for CF. My GM has technomancers be somewhat common in other 'professional' groups; most security so far (other then renraku but then again its them) has all been mundanes.

Side note... what would be some good slang for a TM to refer to a normal hacker or even the non-techo inclined meta..... hmmmm

[Heath Robinson]

Side note... what would be some good slang for a TM to refer to a normal hacker or even the non-techo inclined meta..... hmmmm

Depends on their stream. Major themes for Technomancer thought are Escape, Transcension, Covenant, and Special Contact. Some examples of the more polite terms would therefore be; "trapped", "unenlightened", "unchosen", and "unhearing". Slang tends towards short and snappy and is not all that transparent to those who don't share the mindset of the user, so "mundy", "hack", "codger", "cowboy", "jockey", "luddite", and "slaver" are all valid.

[PlatonicPimp]

I want threading that works. I mean, increasing the rating of a CF increases my dice pool, right? but sustaining the threading decreases my dice pool. So I need to thread for at least 3 to see a net gain, and can in fact see a net loss if I roll poorly. Also, fading.

This is the major reason I run with programs as hit cap. In that case my technomancer is exchanging one resource for another, not the same resource for a variable amount of gain. I prefer tactics to gambling.

I found in my campaign, however, that using programs as cap instead of dicepool adders makes the emphasis on high level programs go down. Having a stealth or attack program as high as possible makes sense, but you would rarely need other programs higher than your average roll. It becomes acceptable to leave them at rating 3 or so. Weirdly, this rule makes it so you need sniffer at exactly rating 3, never more, never less. But that's the only weird thing I've seen so far from it.

[Jaid]

I want threading that works. I mean, increasing the rating of a CF increases my dice pool, right? but sustaining the threading decreases my dice pool. So I need to thread for at least 3 to see a net gain, and can in fact see a net loss if I roll poorly. Also, fading.

have you read the FAQ lately?

[FrankTrollman]

My fear is that I'll get too used to my house rules and reduce my effectiveness as a demo team member when running at cons and the TMs in my games (three since I started running SR4) have never complained so I'm not sure there's as big a problem for me as there my be for other campaigns.

But how many stealth house rules do you use?

Do you hand wave away the requirement to make a Matrix Perception test in order to interact with any icon benefiting from Stealth? If not, how do your Technomancers get by when their Fault Sprites can't fight?

Do you put up onionskin defenses or other tiered systems? If so, how do Technomancers maage the tremendous drain on their Tasks?

Do you diversify defenses? If so, how do Technomancers in your game deal with the fact that there are aproximately 16 programs which can legitimately be required to hack a node and they don't begin play with nearly that many?

---

Do your technomancers just tell hacking to fuck off and sit back while Registered Machine Sprites walk heavily armed dobermans around? If not, what rules do you ignore to allow them to do their jobs?

-Frank

[Rapier]

Hi everyone,

I'm a GM from Spain so i have to apologize if my english is not well enough. I'll try to do my best

The thing is i had a few hours arguing with palyers about the matrix rules about how they could be improved or what they espected from the technomancer. The first they told me was that technomancer was a "dwell of BP" in comparison to any other type of character in creation: it had to raise resonance as an extra atribute, it had to master 3 skills group (spellcasters only need 2) and the complex forms were far more expensive than spells, being unable to get a bunch of programs good enough to be versatile in the matrix (all this when a hacker can do more, better and cheaper in BP points. Also, using the rules of threading in the core book, technomancers have to apply a -2 to their throws while maintaining a complex form, (-4 for two,....)

Also, they complained about the rules of 4th that lets a guy of with logic/intuition values of 1 be capable of work in the matrix because of the rolls skill+program.

After this conclusions i had to add some optional rules.From unwired i pick up one optional rules that changes the rolls of skill+program to atribute + skill (turning the program to the value of the maximun hits you can have)

Then we had the discussion of the technomancer and we agreed that, as u said in this thread, the cost of complex form has to be reduced.We thought of two different posibilities:

- Having complex form to be some sort of spells with two ratings (known/mastered) making complex forms rating: ressonance/2 (for known CF) or ressonance (for mastered CF). The cost of this system is still on discussion son i can't give values but it will be near spells cost or lower.

-Another way: Giving the technommancer for free the complex forms of common use. I know this may sound a little rough, but for us is unbelievable that a technomancer is unable to do common use programs (Threading is not a solution for this). This value for this CF is ressonance/2 , the character may spend some points to raise them if he wants. With this we saw that technommancer reduces the CF of for choose (leaving about aprox 18 CF) and gives him a little edge against the hacker. Also if his browse program is not enough he can start threading to improve it.

[Dashifen]

Do you hand wave away the requirement to make a Matrix Perception test in order to interact with any icon benefiting from Stealth? If not, how do your Technomancers get by when their Fault Sprites can't fight?

No, I quite frequently avoid using stealth on legitimate icons so that the lack of Analyze on some sprites isn't an issue at all. Why would IC responding to an alert even have stealth!? It would only reduce the effectiveness of the system (ignoring, for the moment, concepts like ergonimic stealth systems and nexi which were only recently introduced, obviously). Thus, there's no need for a Fault Sprite to use Analyze for the purposes of Matrix Perception because the icons with which they interact isn't Stealthy.

Do you put up onionskin defenses or other tiered systems? If so, how do Technomancers maage the tremendous drain on their Tasks?

I apologize; I had a bad night's sleep so maybe I'm a little slow, but I'm not sure what you mean by a TM's tasks. I'll assume, for the moment, that you're referring to the tasks that a sprite has being managed by a TM which respect to the sprits having to hack their way through the defenses of a tiered system. Firstly, I don't use tiered systems. Ever. They're bad for the fun of the other players and create situations wherein others get pizza while the hacker/TM hacks. By having one or, at maximum, two nodes that need to be hacked in any situation, a TM may only need to spend two tasks to keep his or her sprites along for the ride. In this way, it's possible for a TM to manage sprite tasks and it provides me a little wiggle room to reduce the number of tasks that a powerful sprite may have. A careful use of this sort of thing isn't so bad as to cause pizza-runs among the others, but onionskin style defense an long dungeon-crawl-like matrix runs aren't fun to run and aren't fun to watch.

Secondly, I admit to using a house rule that would allow sprites to use a "Resonance Realm shortcut" exactly like the "Metaplanar shortcut" in street magic. Luckily, that's no longer a house rule as of p. 154 Unwired. It hadn't occurred to me prior to this post that it wasn't just a part of the rules prior to the release of Unwired.

Do you diversify defenses? If so, how do Technomancers in your game deal with the fact that there are aproximately 16 programs which can legitimately be required to hack a node and they don't begin play with nearly that many?

I think we've had this debate before, so I see little need to go on too long but (a) I disagree that you need 16 programs to hack and (b) threading makes up for a lot, especially since the -2 threading penality only counts for the use of other complex forms. Granted, threading becomes less useful in cybercombat since threading Attack, for example, would result in penalities to your defense, but in the course of non-combat hacking, it's rare to use one program at the same time as another.

And, since threading doesn't cost an action (with the exception of widget creation), someone can thread Browse and do their Data Search, drop Browse, thread Analyze to check for Data Bombs, drop Analyze, thread defuse to get rid of it, etc. Granted, fading limits such actions greatly, but in many cases (e.g., Browse) the extended test means that a lower DP doesn't equate to failure, just delay (which could be problematic as well).

Regardless, the TM character in my last campaign, who was so effective I found it emotionally depressing at times, had the following complex forms, and I quote from his sheet, at character generation: Analyze, Armor, Attack, Exploit, Scan and Stealth. Later on, he used karma to by Browse at rating 2. That was it. Everything else, he threaded.

Do your technomancers just tell hacking to fuck off and sit back while Registered Machine Sprites walk heavily armed dobermans around? If not, what rules do you ignore to allow them to do their jobs?

No. All of the TM player characters in my games so far have been hackers. My games have been light on combat drones overall with most of my players focusing on drones primarily for reconnaissance, so that experience may not be generalizable to a greater population. I am not, at this time, aware of any rules that I am actively and intentionally ignoring to facilitate hacking by TMs. Granted, you pointed out to me above that I was using the resonance realm shortcut before it was in-print so it is, perhaps, highly likely that I'm acting in other ways that are technically house rules.

By and large, I do my level best to avoid introducing rules that are specifically designed to contradict rules in the books. It makes it had for my new players to adjust to my table, and it makes it hard for me to adjust to con-tables where I can't use those house rules.

[Dashifen]

[...]

Also, using the rules of threading in the core book, technomancers have to apply a -2 to their throws while maintaining a complex form, (-4 for two,....)

[...]

-Another way: Giving the technommancer for free the complex forms of common use. I know this may sound a little rough, but for us is unbelievable that a technomancer is unable to do common use programs (Threading is not a solution for this).

Don't forget that the FAQ says that the use of the threaded complex form is not at a -2 penalty. Thus, threading Browse and using it for a Data Search would not result in a -2. Then, you'd only have to release the Threaded Browse complex form before performing a matrix action requiring a different form. The only time I've seen the -2 threading penalty applied was in cybercombat. But, it was cybercombat between technomancers, so they both actually threaded their Attack program. You want to see some matrix damage? Thread attack to a rating 10 or 11 form and start wailing on stuff. It get brutal fast. Especially when they sit back and throw sprites at each other that get mowed down by the threaded Attack forms.


.... good times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ...


Edit: FAQ: TM Questions. That's a link to the TM portion of the FAQ. The question third from the bottom of that section details the threading penalty.

[FrankTrollman]

Why would IC responding to an alert even have stealth!?

Because Stealth is also your Matrix Defense Pool, and the sample IC in Unwired has Stealth?

Firstly, I don't use tiered systems. Ever.

That would improve task based hacking a lot, yeah.

I disagree that you need 16 programs to hack

1. Want to Interact with any Icon; whether datafile, user, IC, or sprite: Analyze or Fail.
2. Want to find any any data or accomplish anything: Browse or fail.
3. Want to control any device, unlock a door, turn on sprinklers or in any other way affect anything in the real world: Command or Fail.
4. Want to cover any trail, provide accounts for any other user, transfer any file, or change any data: Edit or Fail.
5. Want to interact with any node other than one you are logged onto ever: Scan or Fail.
6. Want to crash any enemy icon: Attack or Fail.
7. Want to interact with or hack in any datastream where anyone even looked at it with an Encrypt program: Decrypt or fail.
8. Want to get any protected data: Defuse or Fail.
9. Want to perform any Matrix actions in a static zone or suppressed area: ECCM or fail.
10. Want to log in to any node for which you don't have a passcode: Exploit or Fail.
11. Want to get information from transmitted data: Sniffer or Fail.
12. Want to log onto any node that someone has bothered to make the Computer + Edit (1) test to limit Access ID access to: Spoof or Fail.
13. Want to hack into literally anything or survive even a moment in Matrix combat: Stealth or Fail.
14. Want to perform any tracing action: Track or Fail

I will submit that one could hack without Armor or Encryption. So I'll give you that my example of 16 is slightly on the large side. But only slightly. And 14 is still more than you got.

Regardless, the TM character in my last campaign, who was so effective I found it emotionally depressing at times, had the following complex forms, and I quote from his sheet, at character generation: Analyze, Armor, Attack, Exploit, Scan and Stealth. Later on, he used karma to by Browse at rating 2. That was it. Everything else, he threaded.

He threaded edit requirements? How?

-Frank

[Nightwalker450]

1. Want to Interact with any Icon; whether datafile, user, IC, or sprite: Analyze or Fail.
2. Want to find any any data or accomplish anything: Browse or fail.
3. Want to control any device, unlock a door, turn on sprinklers or in any other way affect anything in the real world: Command or Fail.
4. Want to cover any trail, provide accounts for any other user, transfer any file, or change any data: Edit or Fail.
5. Want to interact with any node other than one you are logged onto ever: Scan or Fail.
6. Want to crash any enemy icon: Attack or Fail.
7. Want to interact with or hack in any datastream where anyone even looked at it with an Encrypt program: Decrypt or fail.
8. Want to get any protected data: Defuse or Fail.
9. Want to perform any Matrix actions in a static zone or suppressed area: ECCM or fail.
10. Want to log in to any node for which you don't have a passcode: Exploit or Fail.
11. Want to get information from transmitted data: Sniffer or Fail.
12. Want to log onto any node that someone has bothered to make the Computer + Edit (1) test to limit Access ID access to: Spoof or Fail.
13. Want to hack into literally anything or survive even a moment in Matrix combat: Stealth or Fail.
14. Want to perform any tracing action: Track or Fail

1. Analyze - is only needed so far as Perception is needed, but Technomancers should have it. Because someone doesn't have perception does that mean that they are deaf and blind? Once you place your hand on the shoulder of the bad guy and say, kill this man, do your teammates need to make perception checks to see if they can see him
2. Browse - This is necessary, but usually doesn't have to be high rating unless you're in a hurry, can be threaded when necessary
3. Command - is only for gameboy control of something. Otherwise you just tell the device what to do, and its pilot or system takes over. What you're talking about sounds like saying you can't run any program at all without the command program to run it. Hmm.. You can't run a command program without running a command program to tell it what to do
4. Edit - thresholds are extremely low, or non-existant. Edit is easily threaded when necessary
5. Scan - Again unless in a hurry you can thread it when necessary. It only needs to be sustained until you find the node, its not used to connect just to locate
6. Attack - You already said its not necessary all the time.
7. Decrypt - Another extended threshold, but I prefer to have it so I can thread it higher than usual
8. Defuse - This one is actually more necessary, because its a one shot pass or fail, there is no extended test. But I've failed it with a rating 8 Complex form before
9. ECCM - Doesn't happen that often, because once people start jamming, they are usually affected by it as well. This can be threaded on the fly when its necessary
10. Exploit - It's the heart of a hackers programs, no arguing
11. Sniffer - Can be threaded when necessary, and actually its questionable whether a Technomancer can get much use out of this since they might have to remain in the node for it to even be possible (I can never get an answer to does a Technomancer have to be present for a Complex Form to function)
12. Spoof - Your example is actually covered more by exploit. Spoof is used to cover your data trail, or to send a command to a node using an Access ID you've intercepted. Covering the data trail is fairly necessary, but this varies from system to system, some attack some track, some do both.
13. Stealth - No arguments
14. Track - You can thread when tracking is necessary, usually you're more likely to be on the receiving end of this.

6 Complex Forms that you should have in your pocket. Most of the others are highly situational, or are extended tests that can use a lower rating threaded program when needed. You can thread and release programs at will practically, so you thread something for the action then drop it. If you have low fading attributes it might hurt threading and dropping constantly.

My Technomancers list is this currently -
Analyze, Stealth, Exploit, Sniffer, Spoof, Shield, Encrypt, Decrypt, Browse, Attack
Only a few times have I had to reach outside of this set (Note I swapped Shield in to replace Edit when Unwired came out), I don't engage in cybercombat usually except to crash something, so I've had to thread Armor, ECCM, and Defuse. Defuse I threaded a rating 7 (using original rules, and edge... It hurt) and still failed. There really is minimal problem with starting Complex Forms. It's the karma cost to improve them or get more that is ridiculous, so its hard to actually start to fill out your Complex Form set.

[Iduno]

Because Stealth is also your Matrix Defense Pool, and the sample IC in Unwired has Stealth?

I had to look that up. My copy of the BBB says response+firewall on page 230, and response+stealth in the summary table on page 232. The errata changes both to firewall.

[Grimagor]

Hello Everybody!

I'm a Shadowrun player since second edition (when a metahuman need a priority A), and now i play in Rapier's campaing (i'm Spanish too) and i have to say that 4th is very good.
But, like every system, they have a problem and the worst problem in 4th (in my opinion) are technomancers.

I like the idea of some "Matrix wizard", some kind like Neo or Jhonny Mnemonic (Keanu Reeves rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) ) and this "class" is very cool but in game mechanics is a total scraps.
Why? first of all there a dwell of BP (the reasons are explained by Rapier's) and the center of this "Black hole" fo BP are complex forms.
But the root of this problem is the long variety of programs. For EVERY matrix action you can do you need a ESPECYFIC program and this sucks.
So you have to paid a large acount of BP and karma to raise a lot of complex forms, it's true that you can thread but a hacker for example only have to paid in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
And THAT is the problem, give you 100000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to a Technomancers to improve self and the can't do NOTHING (well, everybody can buy a DocWagon Platinum, a Luxurious stylelife and any kind of BFG), a Non awaken can buy ciber/bioware to improve self, a hacker can upgrade his commlink and buy all the programs to rating 6, a Magician can bind spirits and buy focis and spells formulae even and adept can buy a weapon focus, but technomancers can't do nothing (well, they can buy drones but they must paidin Karma for complex forms of autosofts).

There is no non-awaken class who can emulate a wizard but "non-awaken" technonamcers can emulate them very well.

In our lats game of shadowrun i'm playing a hacker, i really wanna play a Technomancer but when i begin to make him i find a lot of troubles, troubles that a Hacker don't have: For example, Nightwalker450 Character (i choose your character because looks like he have a very optimized selection of complex form) have ten complex forms, ten complex forms of rating 5 is 50 BP. A hacker with 50 BP can have a commlink with all ratings of 6 and all programs with a rating 6 and they have enough money to buy some agents of high rating, more ciberware even a pair of drones, and he don't spend more BP to raise another atribute (resonance) and another skill group (tasking).
But there's more, even a Hacker-adept is better than a technomancers, with and essence of 5 or more (and Magic atribute of the same value), and buying the improve ability adept's power to all matrix skills (Hacking, Cibercombat, Computers, Data search and Software) to the maximun (at a acost of .25 you can upgrade all very well) and the rest to anothers (and helpfull) adepts power and 50 BP (or less) in money.

It's true that Sprite are great and Echoes are powerfull, but you must have to paid more Karma: Echoes+Complex forms+Skills (especially Tasking skills group)+Some atribute+Resonance= a long black hole of Karma

Well, looks like a write a lot to say very little, this post is to talk about complex forms but i made a Techonancer's view point in general.

That's all for now, i really need a shadowrun forum to know more diferents view points, you are the best.

See ya!!!


PD: Is very sad that you can be a "super hacker" with Logic 1 (because you roll program+skill)

[Jaid]

all i'm gonna say: it looks like you folks haven't seen a technomancer played to their full potential. a technomancer does not have the wide selection of programs available without hacking that a hacker does.

but what you *can* do with a technomancer is scary in it's own way. you can make a 'matrix sniper' who throws around an attack program at rating 12 with the psychotropic option wound in, one-shotting just about anything. and it isn't even very hard. you can make a remote control rigger who brings dice pools in the high 20's to low 30's when it comes to vehicle operation. again, it isn't even very hard.

and you can still be functional in any secondary function you want, simply by threading and using sprites.

stop trying to play a technomancer like a hacker. they aren't a hacker, they're technomancers. learn how to play as a technomancer, and you will do great. but trying to be a hacker is just not going to work, any more than an adept can be a street sam; sure, they can cover 1 or 2 areas as well (even better than, even) as a street sam can. but an adept is not the same thing, and while you can make a gunslinger adept who throws more dice on pistols than your street sam will, the street sam is going to be much more well-rounded. but if you try to play your adept like a street sam, you will run into problems; likewise, you will have problems if you don't play a technomancer as a technomancer.

[Grimagor]

stop trying to play a technomancer like a hacker. they aren't a hacker, they're technomancers.

I'm completely agreed with this, technomancers are hackers like adepts are street samurais.
And this should be the best trait: in short plays the street sam have more options than a adept but in long plays adepts have exotics powers, metamagic and weapons foci and the street sam only have more ciberware. Probably the street sam should have better skills and atributes (because they don't have to raise Magic and initiation) but adepts have powers and metamagic that equilibrate the balance.
But when i try to look with the same glass the technomancers and hackers...is not happen the same.

Why not? first we will compare the adept and street sam (yes, they aren't the same but they have points in common): S.S. have a lot of ciberware and adept have powers, they aren't the same but are powers that can be compared to ciberware (wired reflexes VS improved reflexes, for example). But the best is adepts can made thinks that a S.S can't and viceversa: adepts can have astral perception, and there are no cyberware that can do this and weapon focis must be used by a awaken character.
But what problem are between Hackers and technomancers? hackers can emulate (not copy) almost every technomancer abaility.
Technomancers can theard to improvise programs, but hacker don't need it because they have almost every program.
Technomancers can "summon" sprites, but hackers can buy agents.
It's obvioustly that technomancer's abilities are better than hackers (a good sprite can smash any agent) but they have similar abilities, a SS NEVER can have astral perception and cannot use weapon focis and they don't have anything similar to this feats, but hacker have.

That's the reason of my complaining, cience cannot emulate magic, but can emulate (not be the same) resonance.

Well, taht's i think.

[Tiger Eyes]

Okay, I play a technomancer (technoshaman now with Unwired). She has submerged 2 times and got the Skinlink echo and the Esensing echo. Here's her TM stats:

Res: 5
Compiling 5 (+2 Sleuth Sprites)
Registering 4 (+2 Sleuth Sprites)
Hacking group: 4
Electronics Group: 2
Perception (esensing spec. +2) 1

Complex forms (all at 5): Analyze, Browse*, Edit, Scan, Armor, Attack*, ECCM*, Exploit, Sniffer, Stealth
* never used in game (should've bought Blackhammer, damn it!)

Last night's roleplaying session, she did something that my previous SR4 hackers could never have done. Infiltrated a meeting b/w Azzie execs and the Triads. Was scanned for cyberware and devices, before entering into a wi-fi inhibited "club". We had 3 people in the club and 3 people outside-- she put a sprite in the outside team leader's commlink so they could communicate (#1 thing hacker couldn't do) with images, text, and messages (ended up saving our bacon when a second team attacked the meeting, and my outside team warned us and sent us video footage via "Frank").

While she wandered around the room, she used esensing to get find out what security people had cyberware, where the cameras and other nodes were, and to discover there were no people in the basement. 3 hits on essensing test. (#2 thing hacker couldn't do)

The facility had no wireless access points outside, so any hacking had to be done on-the-fly inside--no where to spend a few cozy hours probing the target, not with 12 security guards and 24!!! bodyguards in the room. The club consisted of a meet&greet room, a meeting room, mens/women's restrooms, and a small catering kitchen, plus a basement. She went into the ladies room, slipped into VR, and hacked, on-the-fly, the security system (Firewall 6, Analyze 6, +6 for Admin passcode; Security Hacker monitoring via AR, patrolling IC). She threaded her exploit up, and then used services from her registered sprites, to have a stealth of 19. (Show me a regular hacker who could do that!) In 2 IPs, the system rolled 12 dice against her, twice (24 dice total). I rolled lousy the first roll, and my GM got more than 6 hits on his first roll: a hacker with a stealth of 6 would have been caught immediately. (#3 thing hacker couldn't do)

She then hacked the commlinks of the security & bodyguards and all the executives, again, Firewall 6+ Analyse 6 vs her stealth of 19. Show me a hacker who could hack, on-the-fly, 36+ commlinks with a stealth of 6 when they are rolling 12 against your 6... sure, maybe a few, but your odds aren't so great when you do it 30 times, someone is going to catch you... (#4 thing...)

In VR, she accomplished all this in 37 combat turns. Hah!

Oh, and did I mention the team did this with 24 hours notice? Yeah, it was a "rush job."

You have to play a TM to their strengths. My TMs strengths are that nothing can see her when she uses her stealth+sprites. Hacking-on-the-fly in AR against tough opponents is difficult, if not impossible, for a regular hacker. My TM cuts through firewalls like a hot knife through butter. Threading is okay, but my TM depends on sprites. Heck, the entire team depends on sprites. The street sams in our team expect a machine sprite to bump up their smart-linked gun (some GMs rule against that, but the RAW allows it), the driver likes those machine sprites for our getaway vehicle, and my TM really enjoys having a machine sprite in our oft-used Medkit. Nothing like getting an extra 6 dice in your dice pool when patching up friends...

Now, once I get her the Acceleration echox3, life will be good, and she'll probably not go into VR to do any hacking.

Anyway, a long post to say, playing a TM to their strengths is the key. A hacker is good, a TM can do amazing things that no hacker can emmulate.

[PlatonicPimp]

if it is fast hacking you desire, I suggest the echo that allows you to be in VR and the real world at once.