Complex Forms, We need a rule that works. Options

[Nightwalker450]

The complex form adjusts I'm going to put on hold for the moment. This is mainly because I decided to grab the Biowire Echo. With this I should be able to start grabbing some skill softs to Emulate on the fly, maybe even purchase some with karma if I'm emulating them often..

Rating --- Skill Cost --- Emulated Complex Form
1 --- 4 --- 1
2 --- 8 --- 2
3 --- 14 --- 3
4 --- 22 --- 4

The amount of Karma I shave off picking up new skills (which will make me effective outside the matrix, especially with Mesh Reality) will give me alot more Karma to throw towards the Black Hole that is Complex Forms. And as long as my GM allows me to get my submersion discounts, this should be effective (I'm actually capped on submersions for the moment, so I need to raise my Resonance again, or just take Echos)

Skinlink, Multiprocessing, Mesh Reality, Overclocking, Biowire

[Grimagor]

But remenber if you use biowire for emulate a skill you can spend edge points.
It's a patch but with some little holes.

[Grimagor]

She threaded her exploit up, and then used services from her registered sprites, to have a stealth of 19. (Show me a regular hacker who could do that!)

A TM can stack the Assist Operation sprite service?

A sprite can "exist" in a Wi-fi inhibited area?

I really don't know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) it, so if somebody can throw some light they're welcome.

[Tiger Eyes]

A TM can stack the Assist Operation sprite service?

A sprite can "exist" in a Wi-fi inhibited area?

I really don't know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) it, so if somebody can throw some light they're welcome.

A sprite can exist anywhere the TM exists. A sprite can exist in a node that is completely separate from the rest of the Matrix, once it has been "summoned" there. Similar to a spirit being able to be inside a ward; once the TM goes inside the Wi-fi inhibited area, they can call their sprites from the Resonance realm. The Resonance realm bypasses all those pesky things like off-line systems, wi-fi inhibiting paint, and other annoyances. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

A TM can have Registered Sprites = Resonance. A resonance 5 TM can therefore quite easily have 5, rating 5 sprites registered. Each of those can assist operations. So technically, a TM with a Stealth of 5 and 5 rating 5 sprites could have a Stealth of 30. That's before threading... That might be overkill, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I've seen some folks suggest that a single sprite can do multiple Assist Operations at one time (so a rating 5 sprite could add 25 to your CF for 5 combat turns, rather than 5 for 25 combat turns), but we haven't allowed that in my game. (Mind, this is my interpretation of the RAW; other GMs may interpret it differently)

[Jaid]

just a note, you can have registered sprites equal to your charisma, not resonance. technically, you can in fact have multiple sprites use assist operation, but even if you don't, you can probably thread up to 8 or 9 in a CF of choice and then assist operation up to 12-14 without too much difficulty, from just one sprite.

[DireRadiant]

just a note, you can have registered sprites equal to your charisma, not resonance. technically, you can in fact have multiple sprites use assist operation, but even if you don't, you can probably thread up to 8 or 9 in a CF of choice and then assist operation up to 12-14 without too much difficulty, from just one sprite.

Try it with a Stealth CF, like someone did in a game I ran.

Now try and think of the system spiders, hackers, agents and IC trying to figure out what's happening in the node being hacked.

"My threshold is WHAT!??"

Oh yeah, don't forget, this is why TM's suck... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Nightwalker450]

Our GM (or mainly my own interpretation since I don't try) usually handles like this:

I can't compile in a dead zone. I'd probably be able to compile in an area with matrix activity though, wi-fi inhibited though might make it more difficult. My sprites though can ride along on my internal comm (that would be the resonance realm they are in at the time in a fashion). Which allows me to bring them forth where ever I might be.

I've never done the stacking assist operation mainly because it sounds too much like putting multiple smartlinks on a gun.

[Grimagor]

Totally agreed with Nightwalker.

And there is more, looking more the assist operation, the more i think that he give a bonus, not raise the program rating.
Anybody made this question in a FAQ?

And wi-fi inhibited it's like dead zone and should nullify commlinks, wireless smartlinks, living persona, agents, sprites,...

[Jaid]

wi-fi inhibiting wallpaper merely blocks signals from passing through it. if you physically carry an object that generates a signal through them, the object does not mysteriously stop producing a signal... it just can't (most likely) send it's signal back through to the other side where it used to be. that's all.

dead zones are even less of a barrier. dead zones are just places where there isn't matrix traffic. it's not that there's some magical force destroying radio signals and eating matrix traffic, it's simply a matter of that area not having a lot of stuff that generates signals. at most, you're looking at a place where it's harder to get a signal, and that's very easily corrected; a good signal rating is dirt cheap to buy. even a technomancer is probably looking at 3 signal, and if they have a satellite link with them to connect through, it's gonna extend well past almost any dead zone you can think of.

[Nightwalker450]

wi-fi inhibiting wallpaper merely blocks signals from passing through it. if you physically carry an object that generates a signal through them, the object does not mysteriously stop producing a signal... it just can't (most likely) send it's signal back through to the other side where it used to be. that's all.

dead zones are even less of a barrier. dead zones are just places where there isn't matrix traffic. it's not that there's some magical force destroying radio signals and eating matrix traffic, it's simply a matter of that area not having a lot of stuff that generates signals. at most, you're looking at a place where it's harder to get a signal, and that's very easily corrected; a good signal rating is dirt cheap to buy. even a technomancer is probably looking at 3 signal, and if they have a satellite link with them to connect through, it's gonna extend well past almost any dead zone you can think of.

Yeah I forgot to mention that, my technomancer carries a signal booster just for the cases where I'm in a dead zone. Its a matter of compiling you have to get to at least more then your teams network worth of matrix. Whether a inhibited area would have enough resonance to successfully compile it could be iffy. As a GM I'd probably put a severe penalty on trying it, but it could be possible (similar to summoning in a background count, worse drain etc..)

[Rapier]

As my knowledge stands in wireless devices, in a wireless-inhibed area most items of you PAN will find no conection between them or strong dificulties to have a link between them (as a matter of playing it will destroy partial or totally your signal ratings) because of the "noise" the inhibiter generates... Again, as a matter of playing, the only thing that can save you from being wireless deaf is to have an strong ECCM to negate such effects. Signal boosters may work to but in that case stands the power used in the inhibitor vs the power used in your signal booster. I assume a device installed in a facility conected to the electric line will have more power than any equipment with batteries you can carry on.


After that, talking about TM, the example of stealth 19. Assuming ressonance 8, the maximun skill you can thread is 16, and having that CF in a high rate like 6 or around, this are near 10 hits you need to boost the skill (as you talk about rating 5 sprites, i assume you raised the skill to 14, so that's 8 hits). That's a fading throw of willpower+ressonance against 8DV Physical.

Also, if you read the sprite-TM link, this link is made throug the matrix and if the technomancer loses his conetion, the link brokens (page 235, SR4). As i said, wireless- inhibed is that.

She then hacked the commlinks of the security & bodyguards and all the executives, again, Firewall 6+ Analyse 6 vs her stealth of 19. Show me a hacker who could hack, on-the-fly, 36+ commlinks with a stealth of 6 when they are rolling 12 against your 6... sure, maybe a few, but your odds aren't so great when you do it 30 times, someone is going to catch you... (#4 thing...)

In VR, she accomplished all this in 37 combat turns. Hah!

Now assuming you've got charisma 6, you've got 6 sprites ,one outside stablishing comms and 5 more on your side to boost your powers.
Using them you spent at least 8 services out of them for sustaining your skill. As i see, all that services must come from a bound sprites.


Altough is a very powerfull use of the TM resources, i have to remember you that Registrered sprites may put up drain like spell sustaining on a TM (page 235 SR4),
so in the case you sustain your thread, have a comm with the team, and a sprite empowering your stealth, you may have between a -4 and a -6 on your pool due to your concentration needs. Thanks to VR you can drop this pool negatives.

Another thing to say, is to remember that sprites are very similar to spirits, and have 8 services burned as sustaining a power might be it seen as slavery of sprites, due to the harsh moment you stress the sprite (this of course, is at GM discretion).

Altough that, a stealth 14 is quite powerfull, but seems to me like a spellcaster with stunball/stunbolt. Grimagor used to be a spellcaster and combats lasted the time he needed to act. Throwing stunballs at Rating 12 with magic+spellcasting+karma (16-18 dice), even the enemies with a spellcaster couldn¡t resist such atacks (ask a street sam about his willpower (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) ), his drain was 4DV phys.

What i want to say is that tweaking the rules (surpasing your magic or going far beyond your ressonance) is not supossed to be the usual. Altough that, if you assume the dangers of spilling your inner parts out as a part of your powers, you'll be able to surpass easy whatever people think its powerfull (although i think the rating of CF should've limited to Ressonancex2, an the asist operation procees as a bonus dice to the throw rather than boost CF if you threaded before)

That of course a Hacker can't do it, but now with the program options i think hackers can do some pretty stuff too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Also, by the Karma you have used in submersion (two times = 29 KP), raise Ressonance to 8 (45 KP) and raising CF and skill (some more), a hacker easyly has hacking/computers 6 with specialization and some atributes raised too (maybe with money can have an encephalon and the other one to have IP 5 in hot sim)

[Tiger Eyes]

A bound sprite (or spirit) is a drain on you "if the gamemaster chooses." My GM views this as an optional rule and does not use it (he also does not apply this optional rule to the shaman in our group). Nor do we view having a spirit assist operation as bothering the sprite. (The only thing that seems to bug them so far is getting destroyed in cybercombat... That's our game, of course, others may view it differently.)

A wi-fi inhibited zone, I meant a club that had wi-fi inhibiting wallpaper/paint. So there was no connection to the outside Matrix, but everything inside it, from the system security to the 30+ commlinks, worked just fine. Unwired suggests that a technomancer can access the Resonance Realm simply by meditating in one, off-line node (pg 174). The Resonance Realms can also be used as a shortcut, rather like a metaplanar shortcut, bypassing system security and normal matrix topology.

The room wasn't being actively jammed, it just was cut off from having signals sent outside it. Inside was a nice bustling little Matrix all its own.

A deadzone can be overcome with a signal booster or a satellite uplink (and wouldn't that make a fun echo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

Also, if you read the sprite-TM link, this link is made throug the matrix and if the technomancer loses his connection, the link brokens (page 235, SR4). As i said, wireless- inhibed is that.

Sprites are able to move freely through the resonance realms (Unwired pg 173). We consider wi-fi blocking wall-paper like a Matrix Ward. Keeps everyone else (the signals) from getting in or out. Doesn't stop the Sprite-TM link. Going through wireless-inhibiting wallpaper doesn't make a TM go offline. (see pg 223 of SR4: "some megacorps employ wireless networks but contain them within wi-fi-inhibiting wallpaper and paint-specially designed to prevent wireless radio signals from passing through-and so a hacker needs to get inside the walls to wirelessly access the network") which indicates that inside the wifi-inhibiting wallpaper, a wireless matrix can be maintained.

As for the stealth, Stealth 5, plus two rating 5 sprites, plus 1 rating 4 sprite Assisting Operation. Stealth 19 (5+5+5+4). For a short, brief, wonderful moment in time. No dice pool modifiers, since the rule is optional. Since she didn't allow any of them to "burn out" and released all the sprites before they used up their registered service (plus when she compiled them, and registered them, she specifically told them what she hoped to do, that it was for one night, and, well, my GM got 0 hits on his rolls to resist registering, so we decided the sprites were happy to help. heh. Love technoshamans, and the way they "ask" for help). It is certainly only one way to play. If a GM decided to enforce the sprites=-2 DP modifier, then thats fine, it just requires a TM to take a different approach.

[Rapier]

About the satelite link, think that's some kind of mini-antena so i asumme that is quite obvious and at least you have to be outside to use it (ideal for dead zones).

[...]

A wi-fi inhibited zone, I meant a club that had wi-fi inhibiting wallpaper/paint. So there was no connection to the outside Matrix, but everything inside it, from the system security to the 30+ commlinks, worked just fine. Unwired suggests that a technomancer can access the Resonance Realm simply by meditating in one, off-line node (pg 174). The Resonance Realms can also be used as a shortcut, rather like a metaplanar shortcut, bypassing system security and normal matrix topology.

The room wasn't being actively jammed, it just was cut off from having signals sent outside it. Inside was a nice bustling little Matrix all its own.

A deadzone can be overcome with a signal booster or a satellite uplink (and wouldn't that make a fun echo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[...]

Uf, i have to say it's quite different a matrix inhibed zone than a room with pain wi-fi inhibid. I thought of it in the wrong way, if in that case the conection with the sprite is posible and some other things also.

It's true that in this kind of situation GM optional rules changes a lot the way this is played. I use the rule of sustaining spirits because they really make the difference in situations and it's common to be really hard to fight them (a spellcaster with 4 spirits giving love to everyone in their way is a little bit hardcore, i can say a technommancer with some sprites in a node can break havoc over any hacker or spider who dare to fight them). I think stacking sprites is a bit desmesurated, it may turn matrix combat into a fight of who wears more sprites arround them and may left all the other things a technomancer can do (threading, widgets,... )

About ressonance way, it's true that you can reach in a off-matrix node, but i'd rather (as a GM) take the privilege to say when a node is able for submersion (the ressonance is something that even technomancers doesn't know how it really works)

i have to say that designers could had saved echos as habilities or could made something like a Techno-adept (altough is hard to craft one, such powers as acceleration, e-sensing, biowire and some more could be fittet as "techno-adept powers"). On the contrary, is the newest part of shadowrun (matrix and technomancers exclusive of 4th) so i think is harder to make it smooth.

Another thing to say is that the throw of E-sensing (why is not a skill as assensing??) can be easy made by a hacker with a good electronic warfare+scan pool, although it will be harder for him to detect cyberware.

Finally, just as a curiosity, did you know that 3rd edition had less programs than 4th?, that's at least in the core rules.