Guns and knockdown, What most of us didn't know Options

[AngelisStorm]

Good speach Hyzmarca.

[The Jopp]

It's not GUN CONTROL that is a problem, it's just that there should be a harder gun OWNER control.

Too many people who by all accounts SHOULDN'T be allowed to own a gun owns it and use/show/handle them at the wrong time/situation/location.

Everyone can own a gun but too many irresponsible people collect and own them.

[Fuchs]

The main problem is that people are acting out of fear. Each individual high-profile incident involving a firearm is dragged out and blown up, to create fear among the population. In some countries, you can see the same mechanism at work with regards to foreigners, each time a foreigner committs a crime it's blown up by certain circles.

The other problem is that a large part of society is unable or unwilling to accept reality. They cling to the stupid and arrogant belief that somehow, one just has to ban the right stuff (music, tv, internet, games, clothes, etc.) and no human will committ a crime anymore. As if humans were machines, where Input A (f.e. violent computer game) results in Output B (shooting).

Until people accept that humans are individuals, and have to be held responsible for their acts, and stop blaming all the ills on other factors to avoid facing the fact that a humans are criminals for no other reason that that they want to, we'll see more and more freedom eroded.

[hobgoblin]

careful with that "reality" argument...

"i reject your reality and substitute my own"...

[The Jopp]

The other problem is that a large part of society is unable or unwilling to accept reality.

I accept reality, i just don't accept gunlaws that basically allows anyone to own an arsenal for "collecting" purposes and where there is a slight formality in background checks for getting access to a firearm.

Hunting: No problem
Defense: No problem
Collecting: Yea sure, what? Automatic Weapons? Grenade launchers? Flamethrowers? Miniguns?

Is there a LIMIT to how many weapons a regular citisen is allowed to own in the US?

[hobgoblin]

Is there a LIMIT to how many weapons a regular citisen is allowed to own in the US?

i suspect, like many other things, those laws vary from state to state.

[Whipstitch]

The argument for gun control isn't necessarily that there would be less crime but rather that there would be less gun crime (what with being less guns to commit crimes with) and that a crime committed with a gun is more likely to involve a fatality than a crime committed without one. I'm not for gun control or anything, but it really seems to me like you guys are beating down a straw man and then patting yourselves on the back afterwards.

[hobgoblin]

it also seems like many read "abolish" (or something to that effect) when the word "control" is used...

[TheOneRonin]

I accept reality, i just don't accept gunlaws that basically allows anyone to own an arsenal for "collecting" purposes and where there is a slight formality in background checks for getting access to a firearm.

Hunting: No problem
Defense: No problem
Collecting: Yea sure, what? Automatic Weapons? Grenade launchers? Flamethrowers? Miniguns?

Hardly.

In RE: Procedures for legally purchasing a fully automatic weapon in the United States of America:

You will pay your Class 3 dealer when you purchase your machine gun. The dealer will keep possession of ‘your' machine gun, until your paperwork clears. At this time, your paperwork starts. The dealer will give you ATF Form 4 (5320.4), Application for Tax Transfer, and Registration of Firearm ATF Form (5330.20) Certification of Compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922 (G)(5)(B) and FD-258 F.B.I. Fingerprint Cards, at least 2.

Let's start with Form 4. After you and the selling dealer complete the form, you will need pictures, (passport type). Check first before affixing the pictures to your Form 4, as sometimes they prefer them separate for typing purposes. Next, the Certification of Compliance will be filled out by you, the buyer. Your fingerprint cards need to be done by an officcial law enforcement agency, such as your local sheriff or police department. Once you have filled out your fingerprint cards, you are ready to proceed. You will take your Form 4 (5320.4), Form (5330.20), and fingerprint cards, in person to your C.L.E.O. (Chief Law Enforcement Officer). This official can differ from state to county to city. This is why who you choose as your Class 3 dealer can make a difference, regarding your paperwork. A good and experienced dealer will know where to go and who to see for Class 3 transactions. This will indeed save you time, hassles, and likely money. Once your paperwork is received by your C.L.E.O., or their representative, the waiting starts. This will take time for background checks, and to investigate any reasons they should not see you fit to possess such a weapon. If all goes well, your C.L.E.O. signs your paperwork and you will be notified to pick it up. Now you move on to the next phase, which will be the B.A.T.F.E. At this time you will need to get a $200 cashiers check. This is to pay for your Tax Stamp, and this must go with your paperwork. Once again, your dealer will know where to send this packet of papers and how, (it is a good idea to have them signed for when mailing). The address is on your Form 4 (5320.4). Once your paperwork is sent to the B.A.T.F.E., it's time for more patience. Now you will wait for your dealer to notify you that your paperwork has cleared and your machine gun is ready to be picked up, (transferred to your possession). The moment you have waited for. Remember this entire process can take 3 to 12 months, but it will be worth it.

Understand that while it is legal to own machine guns and other weapons of this type, in most states, it is not every Sheriffs desire to have a bunch of these weapons circulating around his county, and so therefore, the Sheriff may not be extremely accommodating in helping you do things in this process in the correct order, which if not done properly, will delay your acquisition of your machine gun. Many C.L.E.O. may not be familiar with the process and so will not be of much help.

Yeah, I'm sure most criminal types that feel like lighting up a playground or restaurant with their fully-auto AK actually go through this whole process. Man...those CRAZY Americans! They let their population own anti-tank weapons with nothing more than a wink and a nod. Right.

I don't have time to do the research, but I would LOVE to know how many violent crimes in the US that involved firearms in the past 20 years also involved anyone who has a Tax Stamp of FFL? Anyone at all?

[kzt]

There have been two murders committed with legally owned automatic weapons in the past 30 years per multiple sources. One was by a police officer who moonlighted as an enforcer for a drug dealer with his police department issued submachine gun.

[TheOneRonin]

There have been two murders committed with legally owned automatic weapons in the past 30 years per multiple sources. One was by a police officer who moonlighted as an enforcer for a drug dealer with his police department issued submachine gun.

Like I said, those crazy, crime-committing Americans and their legally obtained automatic weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Maybe if more people had a clue about what is REALLY going on, they wouldn't be so damned afraid of shit like legally owned automatic weapons.

[Warlordtheft]

it also seems like many read "abolish" (or something to that effect) when the word "control" is used...

The problem with gun-control laws is that they aren't solving anything in the US. Most crime here is gang/drug related which is more closely tied to economics. If we ended poverty the crime rate would probably go down. That is one of the reasons clouding the drop in US crime in the 90's.

Also. what are appropriate gun control measures? Outright banning of weapons of certain classes?
How are those defined? Do the people crafting those laws have any idea what they are talking about (ref:Assault rifle, saturday night specials etc, etc)? All or none? Too specific and you cover just a few weapons, too broad and it becomes a defacto ban. Consider one attempt to ban bullets that penetrate body armor, that would cover every high powered rifle.

Side note, in the U.S. the police are there to enforce the laws not protect its citizens (if they can they will do so). The police cannot protect everyone 24/7. Nor will the come within 5 minutes of a 911 call (and even if they did you're still dead). So therefore, in the recent US Supreme Court Ruling, it was found that US citizens had the right to defend themselves. It was also noted that completely banning handguns was violating this right. I'll admit this is very US specific, as in many countritries people don't even have the right to defend themselves.




Boy this thread has gone off topic... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif)

[Shrapnel]

Gun Control means using both hands... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Like I said, those crazy, crime-committing Americans and their legally obtained automatic weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Maybe if more people had a clue about what is REALLY going on, they wouldn't be so damned afraid of shit like legally owned automatic weapons.

I dunno, how many crimes were committed in america with automatic weapons full stop vs in australia? Its pretty much impossible to get fully automatic weapons here (without prying it out of the hands of an infantry soldier.. or just waiting for him to drop it in a swamp), which cuts down the pool of weapons that crims can get to.

The real question is 'What percentage of murders with guns were were committed with weapons that were legally or illegally procured within the united states rather than imported from another jurisdiction or stolen from the military supply chain."

[Platinum Dragon]

Like I said, those crazy, crime-committing Americans and their legally obtained automatic weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Maybe if more people had a clue about what is REALLY going on, they wouldn't be so damned afraid of shit like legally owned automatic weapons.

As C'thuludreams mentions, it's not that the guns used to commit crimes were legally obtained, it's that they were likely stolen from someone who did legally obtain them. If practically everyone owns guns (legally) and there are stores in the local shopping strip that sell them over the counter (legally), how hard is it for someone to (illegally) aquire one if they want to? On the other hand, if your only recourse to illegally aquire guns is to import from overseas or to break into military installations, it's a lot harder to get your hands on one.

Hey presto: gun-related crime goes down. Crime in general may not - that's where effective policing strategies and encouraging communal responsibility comes in, but you'll likely end up with less deaths due to crime.

[Shrapnel]

This just keeps going on and on and on... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

I have a better idea. You guys run your country how you want to, and let us run ours the way we want to.

I don't see too many Americans here complaining about lack of gun control. It seems that most are more concerned with a lack of personal responsibility, and perhaps a longing for the way things once were...(IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

The major voice of dissension seems to be coming from those countries that have already lost their freedom, and now seek to take away our freedom as well. For those of you who don't live in America, how does our crime rate effect you? What vested interest do you have in wanting to take away our personal freedom and our ability to be self-reliant? Why can't you be happy living in your peaceful gun-free utopia, and let us keep our Wild West?

Why is it I'm reminded more and more of Atlas Shrugged as the days go by? Why is it that everybody seems to want to tear down a once great and prosperous nation, and reduce everybody to the same Third-World status?

Oh, well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Who is John Gault, anyway?

** ETA: It's rather sad that we actually managed to get through 5 and a half pages before the topic degenerated into the current discussion. Is this some kind of new Dumpshock record? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) **

[Platinum Dragon]

I resent the implication that everywhere that is not the USA is a 'third world' country.

Your crime rate doesn't affect me in the slightest, but I'm allowed to be concerned for the well-being of other people aren't I? It worries me that a lot of people in the US put such an emphasis on personal freedom that it borders on anarchy. I don't want to tear down your nation at all, I just happen to think that putting too strong an emphasis on personal freedoms endagers the livelihood and freedoms of those around you, and I think that's the US' biggest stumbling block when it comes to improving itself.

[Fortune]

I've resided in a fair number of different countries in the world for varying amounts of time, and visited many, many more. In my opinion, most countries could use more of those 'personal freedoms' you reference ... including looser gun laws.

Oh, and I'm not American.

[Platinum Dragon]

I've resided in a fair number of different countries in the world for varying amounts of time, and visited many, many more. In my opinion, most countries could use more of those 'personal freedoms' you reference ... including looser gun laws.

Oh, and I'm not American.

I gathered that from your various posts in this thread and others. =P

What exactly is it that led you to that opinion, if I may ask?

[Fortune]

I don't really know how to answer that other than to say I came to upon that opinion through my own observations and experiences.

[Critias]

I resent the implication that everywhere that is not the USA is a 'third world' country.

Your crime rate doesn't affect me in the slightest, but I'm allowed to be concerned for the well-being of other people aren't I? It worries me that a lot of people in the US put such an emphasis on personal freedom that it borders on anarchy. I don't want to tear down your nation at all, I just happen to think that putting too strong an emphasis on personal freedoms endagers the livelihood and freedoms of those around you, and I think that's the US' biggest stumbling block when it comes to improving itself.

There's nothing wrong with a strong sense of personal freedom, so long as it is tempered by an equally strong sense of personal responsibility. Most of us who favor the one also favor the other -- and owning a firearm plays a big part in both. In the same way that concealed carry (for instance) allows me the freedom to protect myself, because I was raised to care about others and my community, it also brings me the responsibility (on a personal, if not legal, level) to use that same firearm to defend others.

Right now, there are plenty of people in America without a strong sense of either one. As long as they get to watch their tv and cash in their food stamps for some twinkies, they don't care about much else. So don't worry, I'm sure we're being "improved" by your standards all by our selves.

[Fortune]

Mmmmm ... I really miss Twinkies! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Shrapnel]

I resent the implication that everywhere that is not the USA is a 'third world' country.

I do realize that my statement was rather harsh, and this implication was not the desire of my post. It was more a matter of trying to express the frustration I feel towards the current political climate in general, and specifically towards watching my once proud nation get torn apart from within.

Atlas Shrugged happens to be one of my favorite novels, and I see some rather startling coincidences between the novel and the current political arena. I've seen a definite push towards legalized plunder and all-out socialism. I happen to be a firm believer in the ideals that this country was founded on, not what it currently represents. A large part of these original ideals was that all men should be responsible for their own actions, and provide for their own family's needs. There was also a responsibility to protect your family, your community, and your country. All I've seen lately is a push to take away the freedoms that give us the ability to provide for and protect ourselves, and instead force us to rely on the government to provide for us.

This is a personal issue between myself and my country, and I apologize for taking this out on you unnecessarily. However, I do not feel that it is your place to tell me that I should not have these freedoms that I hold so dear, just because you yourself do not possess them, and do not feel a need for them. If you are happy with your current system of government, I am happy for you. All that I ask is that you stop trying to change mine.

I do understand that this sentiment goes both ways, and am by no means a supporter of the US' current policy of being the World Police. Nor am I a fan of the United Nations trying to step in and fill that same role. I am what you could consider an Isolationist, and firmly believe that all nations should be allowed to do as they please, as long as they are not harming or infringing upon any other nation's freedom. I am a firm believer in sovereign territory, and wish that is still meant what it once used to.

Nowadays, rather than let countries govern themselves, and let people live their own lives, we all feel the need to meddle in other people's affairs. I understand the desire to help others, but it has long since devolved past the point of helping others, and is now fully in the realm of controlling others. This I do not agree with, and feel that it is the duty of everybody, not just US citizens, to fight against oppression.

But now we're back to the original argument regarding gun control, and the right to bear arms. How do you fight oppression if you have no weapons to fight with? Sure, you can form peaceable demonstrations, and trust in your democracy to return balance and order. You can also trust in the benevolence of your current government officials, and hope that they truly represent your interests. But what do you do when Democracy fails, and your government officials no longer represent the will of the people? How do you restore justice? What options do you have?

We are encroaching on a realm of possibility that most people are afraid to speak of, and many refuse to acknowledge. Yet the possibility is still there, and we must be prepared for it. Yet how can we be prepared if our very government takes away the only tools we have to protect and provide for our families and loved ones? How can we be prepared to fight against all enemies, foreign and domestic, if we no longer have the means or the will to wage war?

The Founding Fathers of the United States had already seen all of this, and did everything they could to help prevent us from becoming helpless. It seems to me that this country was founded on the idea that people should be self-reliant, not beholden to their government, and this is why I hold these original ideals so dearly. Your country might not share the same ideals as mine, but please understand that this is the reason we founded our own country in the first place.

Freedom, dear friends, is the most important thing in life. As long as your freedom does not hinder or harm anyone else, what is there to worry about?

[Warlordtheft]

And the real question an American should ask himself/herself is does he still believe that death is prefereable to oppression and tyranny as Patrick Henry espoused.

[Cantankerous]

Oh good grief. The basic liberties WERE, very past tense, secured by arms. An armed electorate, in the day and time in which the founding fathers made provisions for it, was a free electorate. Sorry, but that is a thing of the past. There are no foreign invaders that will swamp the country if Joe Beergutt doesn't hold them off with his fully converted Armalite semi automatic rifle. The right to bear arms was designed to be a last line defense. Today, if it gets to an invasion by a foreign power strong enough to be a threat to more than, say, the Conch Republic (Key West Florida to you heathens) then the last thing that they will need to be worried about is Mr Beergutt and his fabulous abilities to defend his nation with the gun he is more liable to shoot himself or his neighbors with than anyone else.


Isshia