New Metamagics, Advice/Idea's Requested Options

[Muspellsheimr]

Below are a few metamagic techniques I designed. I would appreciate any feedback on them. My questions are:

1) Are they overpowered? If yes, why?
2) Are they underpowered? If yes, why?
3) Do you have any suggestions on alterations to balance them &/or streamline them?
4) Do you have any suggestions for additional new metamagic techniques.

Weaving
Prerequisite: Quickening
Weaving allows an initiate to alter their spells to temporarily sustain themselves. To use Weaving, the initiate must take a Complex Action to adjust one of their active spells to sustain itself. Once done, the caster no longer suffers sustaining penalties for that spell, & can no longer dismiss the spell or change its location (in the case of Area effects); the spell may be dispelled as normal (see Dispelling Sustained Spells, p.176 SR4). The spell will end after Magic minutes, after which time, the initiate must recast the spell if they wish to retain its effects.

This metamagic must be selected for a specific category of magic (Combat, Detection, Health, Illusion, or Manipulation). It may only be used with the selected category, & the selection may not later be changed. An initiate may select this metamagic multiple times, each time choosing a new category of magic to be affected.

An initiate may have a number of spells sustained in this way at one time equal to one half Initiate Grade (round up).

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Extended Casting
Extended Casting allows an initiate to cast spells as an Extended Test with a time interval of Complex Action (Spellcasting) or 12 – Magic Hours (Ritual Spellcasting). The number of rolls made beyond the first cannot exceed the casters Initiate Grade, and for each roll made beyond the first, the Drain of the spell is increased by +1.

If the Magical Link (such as Line of Sight) is broken at any time during the casting, the spell fails & the caster must resist Drain. This metamagic does not allow a caster to exceed Force hits.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Dual Perception
This metamagic allows an initiate to view both the Astral & Physical simultaneously. While Astrally Perceiving, the initiate does not suffer the usual penalties to Physical actions or Perception Tests, & may use AR (but not VR).

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Insight
This metamagic grants an initiate greater understanding & skill in the mystic world. The initiate increases one of their Magical Active Skills (chosen when this metamagic is taken) by one-half their Initiate Grade. This metamagic may be selected multiple times, each time choosing a new Magical Active Skill. As this metamagic augments the rating of a skill, it is subject to the limits on augmented maximums (skill rating x 1.5, round down).

[Herald of Verjig...]

Astral Perception doesn't blind you to the physical, and dual natured critters are aware of both fully at all times. No need for a metamagic on that one (unless that's an odd rewrite for SR4).

I was working on something similar to that extended casting for SR3 at one time. I suggest the following limitations: cannot add extra castings beyond your initiate grade; and pemanent spells required sustaining time accumulates with each additional casting.

So a new (first initiation) initiate with the metamagic can take two rounds to drop double dice into a stunbolt (if LoS is uninterrupted for that span), but no longer than that. If that's too powerful, maybe scale the max as the square root of the grade, so a grade 4 initiate only gets 2 extra rounds of dice.

[Muspellsheimr]

It takes a Smiple Action to shift one's perception from the astral to the physical, and another to shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail).

I do like the idea of limiting the number of additional rolls to Initiate Grade. I will think about it.

As for the reason's I am unsure about making Dual Perception an Advanced Metamagic - Mesh Reality is Advanced, but it does have more benefit, as in VR you are blind to the real-world normally, but with Astral Perception, you can still see the physical, in a way. It would make sense for it to be Advanced in my opinion, but I do not think it has great enough benefit to have a metamagic requirement.

[hazemyth]

How about making Extended Spellcasting apply exclusively to Ritual Sorcery but with an interval of (Force) hours, rather than 1 complex action? Not so unbalancing and makes Ritual Spellcasting more useful to players.

The only problem is that extended tests are usually for tasks with very high thresholds, while the Force of the spell limits the number of hits a player can have. So, you'd either have to make an exception to that rule (limit net hits or limit hits per test), have an extraordinarily high Magic attribute, or be facing some serious (physical) Drain.

Alternately, the player could extend a ritual spell by a factor of (Force) hours, to reduce the Drain by 1, rather than for performing extended tests. Obviously, both options could not be used at once.

On a similar note, reading Unwired, I was astounded by the number of echoes. Some of them clearly could have cognates in the magical world, like Sprite (Spirit) Link and Swap.

[WeaverMount]

The real issue I'm seeing extended casting for combat spells is surprise. In 3 seconds you could likely make 3 or 4 tests and easily hit your max before anyone knows anything is up. Being able to start a fight with a DV = 2xForce almost everytime is really powerful. Also I further imbalances direct and indirect spells because direct extended cast spells are never going to get counter spelled because it's an extended test to generate hits and 1 test to negate them.

I like it that it means you don't really even have to roll for spells out of combat. You will always get them full force. That is kinda nice skip that roll.

[Muspellsheimr]

I have been considering a few more metamagic techniques, and so decided to bump this thread. The original post has been edited to include my current ideas, including modifications to the original ones in this thread to account for feedback & other changes.

[darthmord]

I like them all in the form currently listed except the Weaving. I believe it to be a bit expensive given that it's only usable on one spell per metamagic devoted to it.

It effectively becomes a very (karma) expensive way to learn a self-sustaining spell.

It would be better / more effective to simply Quicken the spell and forget about it. I'd go Masking, Extended Masking, & Quickening. Thus I could make a spell Permanent with Karma (at a reasonable cost too), then Mask it.

Using the same number of Initiations, I could learn Quickening, Weaving, & Weaving. That would give me the ability to make permanent spells with a reasonable Karma cost, and the ability to have two spells self-sustaining for MAGIC minutes. That's nice and all but those spells will be easily trackable back to me. Not to mention that Quickening is superior since it only needs a small cost in Karma to make the spell permanent.

Learning Weaving twice is expensive in karma since that is two more initiate grades on top of the 1st grade to obtain Quickening. This becomes more noticeable when you factor in other useful Metamagic Techniques.

Perhaps have Weaving be usable on all spells you know but when Weaving is used, you make a Magic (2) test to determine the duration. If the test is successful, it lasts (Hits - 1) minutes. Yeah it is an extra roll but in those cases, you'll be taking the time at the table to determine what you are doing anyways.

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Do we have a repository of the suggested / home-brew Metamagic Techniques folks have come up with over time? If so, where could I find it?

[Muspellsheimr]

I like them all in the form currently listed except the Weaving. I believe it to be a bit expensive given that it's only usable on one spell per metamagic devoted to it.
< >
Perhaps have Weaving be usable on all spells you know but when Weaving is used, you make a Magic (2) test to determine the duration. If the test is successful, it lasts (Hits - 1) minutes. Yeah it is an extra roll but in those cases, you'll be taking the time at the table to determine what you are doing anyways.

From how I had it worded, I can see how you thought it must be taken for each spell you wanted to use it with, but this was not the intent - the number of times you took it determined how many spells you could use it with, not which ones you could use it with.

Regardless, I have edited it for a better description, & to make it more effective. Although the Magic test could work, I do not like that method & so will not include it.

Further suggestions welcome, & a compiled list of home-brew Metamagic's would be nice, but I do not think one currently exists. The same would be useful for equipment, spells, adept powers, etc. I may start such threads in the Community Projects forum, if I ever get around to it.

[darthmord]

Seeing as how you meant each learning of Weaving applies to how many you can have active at once vice what spell it is attached to, it makes a lot more sense now.

Weaving x1 = 1 woven spell at once
Weaving x2 = 2 woven spells at once
Weaving x3 = 3 woven spells at once
and so on...

I can get behind this.

If I were at your table, I'd have to think long and hard about what Metamagics to take, especially if these were options.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Weaving nearly turns heal into a fire-and-forget spell...especially if your GM goes with the "must maintain touch until permanent" ruling. Two complex actions as opposed to one and a -2 modifier for forceX2 rounds.

[Muspellsheimr]

Yes, but it requires 2 Metamagics to obtain, & I believe all restorative spells should be an Instantaneous duration anyways.

[Ol' Scratch]

Weaving bothers me a bit. I'd rather it trade off one penalty for another rather than, as others have said, turning sustained spells into "fire and forgets." Quickening, for instance, requires a heavy investment in Karma as the consequence. Weaving... well, it's pretty much free to perform and leaves you without any reprecussions. I really don't know how to resolve it into a form that I would like in my games, but as it stands now I'd probably pass on allowing it for that reason. It makes it too much of a must-have for any serious sorcerer.

I mean, mechanically it's a +2 dice pool bonus for all actions in exchange for a metamagic technique and a Complex Action. The next closest metamagic is Adept Centering which only applies to two groups of skills, one type of magician, and requires the free use of a centering technique to perform. Just doesn't seem quite fair in that context.

[Muspellsheimr]

I reduced the maximum number of spells allowed with Weaving. It is still good, but not as good.

Dr. Funk, what Weaving does is allows some of the advantages of a Quickened spell, with all the disadvantages, & then some. Yes, Quickened spells cost Karma, but they do not go away after time, there is no limit to how many spells you may Quicken, & they are more difficult to dispel. Further, Quickened spells may still be dismissed by the caster if so desired - to remove a Woven spell (such as to bypass a Ward), you must dispel it.

Also, a +2 dice pool bonus is quite a bit different from removing a -2 dice pool penalty; the former allows you to exceed your normal dice pool maximum, the latter only allows you to return to your maximum dice pool, & is circumstantial in when it takes effect. I do not see Weaving as a must-have Metamagic; it is certainly good, but of my two magician characters, one would probably never take it, and the other has more important Metamagics to take first. During combat, sometimes spending a Complex Action to remove your sustaining penalty is well worth it, other times, I would rather deal with the -2 - it just depends on the situation. Outside of combat, it has limited uses outside of flavor.

[Krule]

With regards to metamagic, I'd like to see something that does the same thing for spirits that the Echo Sprite Link does for Technomancers.

[Muspellsheimr]

It's called Spirit Link; not a RAW Metamagic, but is literally an exact duplicate of Sprite Link, so it is not something new, and thus not something I would include in a "New" Metamagic thread.

[SinN]

I especially liked the Dual perception. That would come in great handy for say a mage dual, with alot of spirits?

Also, I thought insight was well thought out.

[Falconer]

Dual perception is cool, unique and usefull. I like it.
Especially since you only see one or the other, it'd be kinda cool to see that what you see on the astral doesn't match what you see on the physical.

The rest are just broken....
Extended test vs. one resist... no way no how. I have bad visions of Dragonball wannabes doing bad HameHame impressions (for the record, I hate dragonball)

Weaving... someones been reading too much Jordan. And sorry, 1min per is enough to last a full combat easy... and eliminating -2 penalties is a huge deal for most non-twinked casters. For someone tossing 10 dice after visual mods... that takes you back to 10 from 8... which is a 25% increase in the dice pool!!! Really just bind sustaining foci and be done w/ it, even the adept living focus power shows sustaining spells isn't so easy.

What might be cooler... an advanced metamagic technique (no clue what would be the prereq) that reduces the sustaining penalty to -1.

Insight... pure brokenness... You know what directly reflects raising magical insight and power... RAISING THE MAGIC STAT DIRECTLY! This effectively gives multiple increases in casting for only a single raise in initiation plus the soon to follow magic stat raise. Count me against Magician Adepts. (although this might be a possible way to make Mystic Adepts not suck so much, initiate and then they can spend magic points on magic skills as if they were improving combat skills... trade one point of raw magic for 2 more dice... tempting, especially if the mystic adept is say mostly a true adept, but specializes in conjuring). But in any case 3 just for initiatiating is pure cheese, even adepts need to spend magic to enhance skills.

[Draconix2090]

I Kinda like these, and unless I'm completely missing what insight does, insight raises the maximum rank your skills can be. Or at least that's how I read it.

[WeaverMount]

My take:

Dual Perception: Totally cool, useful, keep it

Weaving: Mechanically I like it. Meta magics cost almost as much as binding a focus, but is more restricted. Fluff wise it really doesn't jive with me. I really like it that there are no free floating spells. I would rewrite this as "Spell Mastery (Spell Name)". The idea is that you learn the spell so intuitively that you can sustain it effortlessly. You would retain full control, but I would cap the force of the spell at your initiate grade.

Extended Casting: broken for all the reasons stated. Also imagine the scene ending death that would fallow from multicasting.

Insite: I think it's over powered, but then again I think shielding is overpowered. If you want to keep them I would encourage you to mirror that mechanic: 1 skill per meta magic, +grade in dice to the most straight forward use of the skill.

[Muspellsheimr]

@ Falconer:
As they currently are, I do not believe any of them are to powerful. That is why I posted them here, to get other opinions. You, however, are claiming they are overpowering without any support whatsoever as to why. I have addressed what I believe your issues may be, but if you still support they are overpowered, give an explanation, or you will be ignored.

Extended Casting - you seem to imply that it is overpowered in combat. Read it again, & think about it some. It is one of the last Metamagics I would ever take on a combat mage. Here is how it works: you spend 3 Complex Actions (3 turns) to either a) cast 3 spells, or b) cast 1 spell with 3x the dice pool (normal cap remains in place) & +2 drain. This is good for surprise, or overcoming high level Counterspelling. In the case of using it to overcome Counterspelling, they have 3 IP's to simply step behind a wall to foil the spell. It has very nich combat applications.

Weaving - Something that can also be achieved from a Spirit. Yes, Weaving is more effective - that is the point. You are using one of your available Metamagics to be able to do something better than other magicians (two Metamagics, if you do not already have Quickening). It is not so good that it becomes a must-have, but good enough that people would obviously want it. It has its downsides & restrictions - you cannot simply drop a spell to pass through a ward undetected, the spell will end after a set period of time, & there is nothing you can do to stop it (requiring you to recast it), & there is a limit to how many you can have active.

Insight - Fluff: The description claims it increases your skill & understanding. That is directly reflected by an increase to your Skill. Increasing your Magic does not increase your skill or understanding, only your overall power. Mechanics: How is +3 to a specific skill (or split among multiple skills) so overpowering? You can only ever achieve +3 dice with this, and that only if you already had the skill at Rating 6 or 7. I honestly have no idea why you think this is to powerful. I still am unsure about the +3, but considering +4 probably would be to powerful, & +2 would reduce the Metamagic to at best a low-priority option, 3 seemed the number to go with.


@WeaverMount:
Weaving - doing it in the manner you propose would make the Metamagic all but worthless. The only time it would ever be taken is if there is literally no other viable option, or it is specific for the character concept, which I really do not see either happening.

Extended Casting - The only reason presented is quote "I have bad visions of Dragonball wannabes doing bad HameHame impressions". Would you care to provide one of your own, that actually has merit to any perceived balance issues?

Insight - When I was going over initial drafts, one of the members of my group suggested exactly what you just did. Problem with that is, it would become extremely overpowered if it was done that way. You just turned a maximum +3 bonus into +5 (or higher, for groups without our limit on Initiation). Further, skill is applied before dice pool splits, modifiers (as this would be), after. So with multicasting, you basically turn your +5 into +15.


@Draconix:
As it is, it increases your skill rating in the same manner as the Improved Ability Adept Power or Reaction Enhancers Bioware. The reason I decided to make it initially was because you could augment any skill in the game except Magical ones. I saw no reason why those should not also be available for increase.

Your interpretation does give me an idea for another way to do it if it proves to powerful in it's current form though (which I seriously doubt it will).

[Draconix2090]

@Draconix:
As it is, it increases your skill rating in the same manner as the Improved Ability Adept Power or Reaction Enhancers Bioware. The reason I decided to make it initially was because you could augment any skill in the game except Magical ones. I saw no reason why those should not also be available for increase.

Your interpretation does give me an idea for another way to do it if it proves to powerful in it's current form though (which I seriously doubt it will).

Hmm, OK i see it. It really isn't all that overpowered, but just as food for thought, maybe have it increase one active magic skill by 1.5 x its rating rounded down, instead of the metamagic adding 3 points to put were you want.

Either way i would so take this metamagic, the option for 2-3 extra dice on spellcasting or summoning, count me in! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[masterofm]

By RAW all you need to do is use edge and extended casting then becomes broken sauce. There are a lot of spells that when you apply extended casting to in a quick situation they are then overpowered. Sorry but they are. The more you extract it and pour over the spell list for what this allows you to do it can be quite insane. Mean detect enemies is always max cast, or any other sustaining spell. It makes some spells just death against the enemy. "Oh well since I want to use turn to goo on the cyber zombie I'd better overcast and edge." And poof suddenly all your problems are taken care of as long as you can sustain the spell. I mean it really does make spells that you resist with OR crazy insane/broken.

Weaving across the board and why I don't like it. - It creates too much of a glass cannon problem and there is already a glass cannon problem with this game. The Alpha Strike is key, and if you can tie off all of your key spells right before the combat it w/o having to take any penalties and not needing to pass it off to your spirits that is pretty powerful. Not having to waste binding materials to pass the task onto a spirit is also nice. Yeah so it doesn't work in a very select environment, but hell weaving as you have written it is pretty nuts. Personally I might use weaving tied to initiate grade for how many spells you can tie off with it, but still.... it is powerful for what you can do and what you can bypass.

Insight - The most I would make it is +2. Why? Well adepts basically get to do the same thing with their power points... the only difference is if they apply it to a combat skill it is 0.5 per skill. The other difference is say I was bright and got my spellcasting to 5 and counter spelling to 5 (or at least 2 of my skills in the sorcery or conjuring area) and took insight then I could raise my spellcasting to 7 and counter spelling to 6 basically cost 57 karma. Initiating twice from 6 to 7 and 7 to 8 would cost 45 karma. Do you see the huge gap that is created? It's vast, and it doesn't make any sense. That is why it's overpowered and if they wanted to develop it they would have, since adepts get it basically. It would give you extra dice to your skills that would cost more then the cost to initiate twice.

[Muspellsheimr]

Read the description of Weaving again - it has always been limited on how many spells you can use it with; initially, one for each time you took it. I considered that to weak, & so upped it to Initiate Grade. That, I decided was to powerful, so now it is half Initiate Grade, round up.

Extended Casting: At the cost of increased Drain & increased casting time (which does matter a lot in combat), it simply removes the need for a lucky roll. As I have pointed out, in combat, it is only good in nich circumstances - Surprise (which is always fucked up), & overcoming significant spell resistance (which it is easily countered by taking full cover or otherwise blocking LoS). It is not a Metamagic that is particularly useful in combat, being far to easy to counter, & I would rarely expect to see it used in it. Out of combat, it basically eliminates the need for lucky rolls.

Insight - that is exactly how every other augmented value in the game works (excepting Improved Physical Attribute, which is just retarded). An Adept can gain the equivalent of 52 Karma of skills (not counting the fact he's raising them above the normal maximum) for a single Power Point. How is this any more overpowering than that? Also, compairing it to Improved Ability (Combat Skill) does not advance your position; it is generally agreed that that costs to much, & I can easily say it is usually not worth taking.

[WeaverMount]

Weaving - doing it in the manner you propose would make the Metamagic all but worthless. The only time it would ever be taken is if there is literally no other viable option, or it is specific for the character concept, which I really do not see either happening.

I actually saw my version as is a meta magic for extremely advanced initiates. Once you are grade 6+ or whatever you have most of the meta magics you really need, and the karma cost of a focus higher than your grade actually pays off. Plus no one can take it from you. Not everything need be measured by how useful it is to PC runners.
My real objection though, is I didn't like the idea of lasting spell with out energy being pored into it, like karma with quickening. An idea I had that sounds like it has potiential would be an advanced quickening that uses edge for a semi permanent effect.

Extended Casting - The only reason presented is quote "I have bad visions of Dragonball wannabes doing bad HameHame impressions". Would you care to provide one of your own, that actually has merit to any perceived balance issues?

Surprise! no really that is my objection. In a game of glass hammers it makes it even easier for the mage to completely destroy a combat scene if they have oh say 3 seconds to prepare. About the multi-casting the only down side to chucking 3 stun balls at once is that you likely will not get enough hits to make the damage stick. If you can just roll three times you get back up into the realm a regular casting and everything dies. And as Master of m points out damage isn't even the scariest spell. It's the "i win" spells that are really scary, and this makes even counter spelled resistance useless. It would turn all open conflict into keeping the mage alive long enough to push the "i win" button. At a minimum, I think that you should give defenders a perception test with a threshold of 6 - Force to notice something is up. Also I'd up the duration to a whole turn. More radically I'm inclined to say leave it at a complex action, and copy the aiming mechanic, +1 die per interval, for initiate grade rounds or a flat +3.

Insight - When I was going over initial drafts, one of the members of my group suggested exactly what you just did. Problem with that is, it would become extremely overpowered if it was done that way. You just turned a maximum +3 bonus into +5 (or higher, for groups without our limit on Initiation). Further, skill is applied before dice pool splits, modifiers (as this would be), after. So with multicasting, you basically turn your +5 into +15.

Valid, I hadn't thought of that. Again it's not that I think this is over powered I just doesn't feel it's graceful or polished. Some that I think would be cool for this to do is grant a magician a pool of bonus dice they can spend on any magical skill test they like. To replenish it they have to "do there thing". The hermetic studies in there lodge, the shaman goes vision questing through the streets etc.

[Muspellsheimr]

Extended Casting: All the complaints seem to be about this being to powerful in combat situations. Honestly, I do not understand why. Yes, it allows you to overcome higher levels of resistance, but it takes multiple actions to do so, basically giving your enemies "free turns" in regard to you. Further, it can be very easily countered; when you see someone begin casting a spell, and then continue casting that spell, you know something is up. Unless the GM introduces this as an entirely brand new technique, anyone actually capable of combating magicians will likely know about it. All they then need to do is break Line of Sight before the spell goes off (which they have some time to do), and they fully "resist" it. Breaking Line of Sight is something they should be doing anyways.

It is because of how easy it is to stop that it is not useful outside of surprise. In fact, the only time it will probably ever be used outside of surprise combat is to overcome excessive spell defense - something more mundane means can probably do just as well, if not better, in a shorter period of time. Even then, it still has it's flaw of being resisted just by moving away.