Necromancy, AKA: when the dead rise again Options

[Mickle5125]

I'm thinking about making a pretty evil magician character. A "necromancer" who believes that his magic is a gift from Death and is to be used to further Death's goals. Unfortunately, this character doesn't understand his powers yet and is learning more about them.

Having decided on this, I need help with the following:

1) I need ideas on how to make a proper Necromantic Tradition.

2) I need ideas on which spells to have that would be along the lines of a proper necromantic tradition.

3) I need ideas for a mentor spirit that my character can have.


I do have permission from my GM to create a new tradition, I just need to bounce the idea off him before it's finalized.


Help me, Dumpshock. You're my only hope.

[Hocus Pocus]

cobble some stuff from voodoo, greek, norse and egyptian?

[FrankTrollman]

You probably want to be a possession tradition and then generally choose to use dead bodies as hosts. That's quite defensible because dead bodies are pretty awesome and you can eat them afterwards.

Fire, and Air spirits are suboptimal as possession spirits because their great stats don't translate over to the bodies. Also, the fact that every Fire Spirit has elemental damage popping off in all directions is not as useful as you'd think. Earth spirits have an awesome greatform power, but are otherwise not super useful for a Shadowrunner. The other 7 do their thing just fine and you can take any of them and I'll understand.

Just thematically speaking, it sounds like you want to be a Logic tradition. For Mentor, I would just reskin one of the currently available ones. Take the exact mechanics for Owl and call it Vulture and you've got a very nice Necromantic mentor.

-Frank

[Grimagor]

I think there is a problem with this...

Originally, necromancy was an aspect of Black Magic focusing in adivination using the spirits (even bodys) of the deaths. In the real world Necromancer are like mediums (people whit the power to speak with deads), and all the stories about necromancer, since the Endor witch chase in the Bible (1 Samuel 28) to the Loah, are based in this posture.

But obviously, games like Diablo or Warhammer give us a wrong concep of necromancy, the men who summon undeads.

The magical traditions of Shadowrun are based in reals traditions of this world (Wicca, Voodoo, Nordic religion, Shinto,...) and this should be a good starting point.

If you wanna "play" with Death's powers, the Voodoo tradition should be the best one (you don't need to create one if they exist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) ), in fact the TRUE legend of zombies was born in this tradition (all movies before the Night of the Walking deads are based in voodoo curse and others aspects of this traditions).

I hope this info should help you in your quest.

[Oracle]

In the real world Necromancer are like mediums (people whit the power to speak with deads), and all the stories about necromancer, since the Endor witch chase in the Bible (1 Samuel 28) to the Loah, are based in this posture.

Are you seriously talking about 'real' Necromancers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

As Grimagor said, Necromancy was originally a form of Divination in which it's practitioners spoke to the dead, often ancestor spirits, for guidance. It's definition later got changed/expanded to the manipulation of life & the life force, and includes such things as healing, death, & the soul.

Popular concept of necromancy is currently one who raises the dead in the form of zombies & such, brought on primarily by games such as Diablo 2, and a general poor understanding of the original definition. While this is indeed one aspect of modern necromancy, it is probably the least important.

That all being said, if you want the "I raise the dead" concept, it can likely be achieved easily with the Voodoo tradition.

If you want to create a tradition based upon the original aspect of necromancy, make a shamanic tradition with spirits of Guidance & Man as your primary. Guardian & Air, although sub-optimal, are the next in line for what makes the most sense to me.

If you want to use the modern definition, use Black Magic or Hermetic tradition & focus on Heath spells. If you go with this last option, I have a few custom Health spells I use with my current character - a necromancer, that I could post here if you would like.

And finally, remember, any magician can create a zombie, as long as they have the enchanting skill. They are simply a form of construct, similar to golems, with creation rules in Street Magic. It has been a while sense I last went over that section, so cannot tell you more at the moment.

EDIT: For more information on Necromancy, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy

[Grimagor]

Are you seriously talking about 'real' Necromancers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I'm talking about necromancers in the real world.

If heir powers are true or not i dunno (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Rapier]

About the vodoo tradition of the street magic, this tradition can be a good one or a bad one.

Let me explain, the point of view of a player following the vodoo tradition (a houngan) is a magician that believes in the invisibles, a court of spirits of the nature and the dead. It has it's mait-tete, the spirit that guides him through his seek of knowledge and guidance from the invisibles. Upon that, the follower's of the vodoo tradition sees his powers as a gift of the spirits of the dead, a gift that must be thanked through veneration and devotion of the dead . The possesion capabilities is contempled as the price the spellcaster has to pay (lose his mind during the posession) to be able to have the gifts of the spirits. Dead bodies used to make contructs are from people terminal o people who died and voluntary gave their bodies to the Loa (follower's of the vodoo are not only awakened)

Okey then, upon that the question left is which kind of spellcaster is the one that follows the dark aspects of the vodoo tradition.Know as the Petro path.

At my point of view, it brokens the primary rule of venerate the death, this kind of guy sees spirits of dead as weak disposable tools to use for his goals, maybe may disturb the dead by raising them as an experiment, maybe he is killing people just to feed some kind of evil spirit, or a one enough is some kind of serial killer of awakened characters, or a simplier one is that he/she just wants to make genocides an alike.

In that case i will play a lot with plant and earth spirits, as a zombie with all his body surrounded with earth of vine is nice and their powers shape quite good to the needs.
Also for spells i'll choose health and illusion, as a dead follower may fight with disease and the mind of the characters rathen than throwing fireballs (manabolt altough could be the last resource spell in combat). Finally, only to say that he could wear corrupted spell foci, like sacrificing knives and the one i like the most of this tradition, the soul jar. This kind of item is a soul trap and it's used as a control the spirits and for having power over them, it may be a weak spot of the magician, it may be the jail of a powerfull evil spirit controlling him, the truth of that is left to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Siege]

Necrophilia - the overwhelming urge to crack open a cold one.

In all seriousness, do you want your character to be a "good" or "evil" sort? Long before Diablo, D&D had evil necromancers raising the dead and doing all sorts of nasty things with corpses - some of that stems from the medieval Christian belief that meddling with bodies after death was inherently wrong.

You can also make the case for native Shamans as being necromancers as they communicate with spirits and dead ancestors - but for the good of the tribe.

Another option is Neutral - Death being the supremely neutral being. He comes for all of us, rich and poor alike without distinction to race, creed or color.

You can also "flavor" your magic with specific descriptives and special effects like bone motifs, cold winds and temperature drops when the character casts spells. The howls of the damned echo in his voice as he chants his spells, etc.

-Siege

[CanRay]

Sorry, I have to ask...

George A. Romero does Shadowrun! How cool would that be?

[paws2sky]

Sorry, I have to ask...
George A. Romero does Shadowrun! How cool would that be?

I take it you've never encountered an area overrun with Shedim? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

-paws

[CanRay]

I take it you've never encountered an area overrun with Shedim? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

-paws

I wish. I'm still trying to get my first real game going! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

[hyzmarca]

I'm going to go against the grain here and recommend against a possession tradition. Making zombies has become so cliche that it's tacky. Instead, I'd go the ghost route. Very few people do armies of bound ghosts.

For spirits, I'd suggest Guidance, Man, Beast, Worker, and another of your choice, though I'd recommend against plant simply as a matter of flavor. I'd also recommend high Arcana skill for finding and binding free spirits that qualify as being ghosts. (Rules for ghosts are found in Street Magic Magic in the Shadows for SR3; they fit quite nicely into the SR4 free spirit rules).

For Mentor, Dark King (Queen, in this case) is a must.



I'd also recommend against the character being insane. In Earthdawn and by extension SR, Death is a real personal entity with its own goals and desires. She could be (and was) imprisoned. While the Passions of Earthdawn have faded into nothingness, forgotten by all except a handful of immortals who don't even give a crap about them, Death isn't something easily forgotten nor is she something that is easily forgotten. Lurking in the guise of the Dark King idol to avoid the gaze of immortals who may wish to bind her again so that their resurrection magics will work, she almost certainly has an agenda as real as Spider's, if substantially more long term.

[CanRay]

Yeah, just wait until she has to deal with the new Death on the block, created by Mages that read too much Discworld novels! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Jackstand]

Okey then, upon that the question left is which kind of spellcaster is the one that follows the dark aspects of the vodoo tradition.Know as the Petro path.

At my point of view, it brokens the primary rule of venerate the death, this kind of guy sees spirits of dead as weak disposable tools to use for his goals, maybe may disturb the dead by raising them as an experiment, maybe he is killing people just to feed some kind of evil spirit, or a one enough is some kind of serial killer of awakened characters, or a simplier one is that he/she just wants to make genocides an alike.

In that case i will play a lot with plant and earth spirits, as a zombie with all his body surrounded with earth of vine is nice and their powers shape quite good to the needs.
Also for spells i'll choose health and illusion, as a dead follower may fight with disease and the mind of the characters rathen than throwing fireballs (manabolt altough could be the last resource spell in combat). Finally, only to say that he could wear corrupted spell foci, like sacrificing knives and the one i like the most of this tradition, the soul jar. This kind of item is a soul trap and it's used as a control the spirits and for having power over them, it may be a weak spot of the magician, it may be the jail of a powerfull evil spirit controlling him, the truth of that is left to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Wouldn't this really be the Toxic variety of voodoo-man?

edit: Twisted, that is.

[WeaverMount]

While the Passions of Earthdawn have faded into nothingness

Are you saying that because they don't show up in SR, or do you have something more concrete?

[Rapier]

Wouldn't this really be the Toxic variety of voodoo-man?

edit: Twisted, that is.

Is very dificult for a awakened charater to go against the runners if is not in this two ways:

1.- They mess with his/her own agenda or the pissed off him in some way (may it be stealing, fighting, burning his house, messing up with his job,....) or is a corporate/shadowrunner that go against the runners. In this case can be as good as bad. He's just doing what is correct or just doing his job

2.-His way and purpouses stand against everything is ethically or against anyone who crosses is his path. In this case is natural to collide with the players. This clearly be a toxic one.

The thing is every tradition stands having some kind of respect to the people or their surroundings. If a magician starts to ignore this way is easy to see him as a bloody/toxic magician.

For example, a coyote shaman might do what he wants, but he'll never burn a house plenty of children (without a very heavy reason); a Shark shaman would tear apart his oponents but he won't take two Ares predators and go into a mall killing everything on his way. What i want to say is that every tradition is thinked to be playable (and be able to survive in modern society). If it behavies as a normal one, it can have all the reasons a normal guy will have to kill the team and some more. If the GM wants the team to fight against him (also looking as a very dark magician) inevitably will have to seem to a toxic/bloody tradition.

I have to say also that, toxic traditions and free spirits are usual tools a GM has to make magical threats. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Refering to the comment: yes, is the toxic variety, but if you want him to do some things, inevitably will be that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Johnny Jacks]

While the Passions of Earthdawn have faded into nothingness

Actually, they still exist and our venerated as mentor spirits by the Heavenherds in Africa, it's mentioned in the cyberzombie section of Augmentation I think.

[Mäx]

(Rules for ghosts are found in Street Magic for SR3; they fit quite nicely into the SR4 free spirit rules).

I think you mean "Magic In the Shadows" as thats the SR3 magic book, "Street Magic" is for SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[hyzmarca]

Are you saying that because they don't show up in SR, or do you have something more concrete?

'Nothingness' is a bit of melodrama on my part. They are, however, mere shadows of their former glory, weakened to the point of impotence.
One shows up in SR, in Voices from the Past. It is apparent that this Mad Passion has seen better days and it is almost certain that the others are experiencing similar troubles. The Immortals who once worshiped them barely believe that they were ever real.

[Mickle5125]

So I'm definitely going to be referring to this thread numerous times while I'm actually putting the character together. I wasn't expecting this much response. Thanks a bundle, guys and gals!

For more clarification on my ideas for this character:

I'd like to play him as a more neutral character, but I don't really have ideas for how he can act, personality wise to accomplish this goal. Unless someone throws out some ideas (HINT HINT), I have a feeling he's going to be drifting towards evil pretty quickly.

I like the idea for the spells (use health and illusion), but does anyone have a handful of spells they'd actually suggest using?

I really need to get my copy of street magic back from my friend... but, since I won't see him tonight, perhaps someone would be willing to fill me in: what's a possession tradition?

Finally, I see this character viewing the spirits as the spirits of the dead and his spells as the powers of Death herself channeling through him.

Thanks again for all of your help on this! I'll post the final product here once I finish him so that you can all tear him down and help me tweak him to perfection. ^_^

[Teal Deer]

I'd like to play him as a more neutral character, but I don't really have ideas for how he can act, personality wise to accomplish this goal. Unless someone throws out some ideas (HINT HINT), I have a feeling he's going to be drifting towards evil pretty quickly.

Beg, borrow, steal, or arrr a copy of White Wolf's Mage: The Awakening 2nd Edition, and the Euthanatos Tradition Book. The Euthanatos were basically tenders of the Wheel of life and death: magical assassins, but not necessarily murderers; their purpose was toguide those that were hanging on "beyond their time", clinging to life unnaturally, to move on (and subsequently be reborn to new life). Sometimes that involved actual stabbing of people, sometimes not. There were some who only worked with spirits and ghosts, some who dealt with ideas/memes/philosophies, etc, and some who made a point of hunting vampires and other undead, but the big overraching connection was that they believed that death was a natural and important part of the cycle of life, and that in some cases the modern world was corrupting this, causing very great karmic harm. Works even better within SR, one would imagine. There were plenty of ethnically-influenced subtraditions in the tradbook, too - lots and lots to work with.

[Muspellsheimr]

I like the idea for the spells (use health and illusion), but does anyone have a handful of spells they'd actually suggest using?

In regards to the 'real' (modern) definition, anything that affects the state of the targets health, positively or negatively, could be considered necromantic. Also, although not necromancy, cold & ice related magic is often associated with it, as well as shadows & darkness. Keeping this in mind, I would suggest the following spells from SR4 & Street Magic.

Also, see if your GM will allow you to take Health spells (especially Negative) with a range of Line of Sight for +2 Drain, as per spell creation rules in Street Magic

Combat

• Frost
• Blizzard

Detection

• Detect Life [Extended]
• Night Vision

Health

• Cure Disease
• Decrease [Attribute]
• Decrease Reflexes
• Heal
• Increase [Attribute]
• Increase Reflexes
• Intoxication

Illusion

• Agony
• Foreboding
• [Sense] Removal

Manipulation

• Alter Temperature
• Animate
• [Element] Aura (Ice)
• Ice Sheet
• Mist
• Shadow

Now for a few spells of my design. Note: These are not RAW, and will need your GM's approval before use.

Health Spells

Contagion (Negative)
Type: M Test: O (BOD) Range: T Duration: P DV: (Force / 2) + 3
This spell infects the subject with a Pathogen. A version of the spell exists for each pathogen. The pathogens power is equal to the spells Net Hits, and affects the subject immediately upon becoming permanent (initial onset unresisted), but otherwise follows the normal rules for that pathogen. No pathogen inflicted with this spell is incurable, but if no known antidote exists, must be overcome with a bodies natural resistance.
Net Hits can also be used to reduce the base time for the spell to become permanent; each hit spent this way shaves off one Combat Turn (hits can be split between power and reducing time as the caster desires).
Drain: (F / 2)
+1 - Physical
-2 - Touch
+0 - Sustained
+2 - Negative Effect
+2 - Ad-Hoc: Reason Unknown

[Pathogen/Toxin] Immunity
Type: P Test: S Range: T Duration: S DV: (Force / 2) -2
This spell grants the subject Hardened Armor against pathogens or toxins equal to (Hits x 2). This spell does not reverse the effects of previous exposure, although may alleviate the side effects, at the game masters discretion. This spell will not cure the subject of a disease, although if sustained during a resistance test will help the subject overcome the disease. A separate version of this spell exists for each pathogen and toxin.
Drain: (F / 2)
+0 - Mana
-2 - Touch
+0 - Sustained

Regeneration
Type: M Test: S Range: T Duration: S DV: (Force / 2) + 4
This spell accelerates the subjects natural rate of healing, allowing for rapid regeneration of damage. A the end of each Combat Turn, the subject makes a Body + (Spells Hits) test. Each hit heals 1 point of Physical or Stun damage. If the subject has already taken enough damage to enter into Physical Damage Overflow, the subject is not considered dead until it has had a chance to make a Regeneration Test. After a subject has mad a Regeneration Test, if the damage overflow is still greater than the subject's Body attribute, then the subject is dead.
Some damage cannot be healed with this spell. Damage to the brain or spinal cord (from a called shot to the head, for example) cannot be healed this way. Damage from Drain cannot be healed with this spell. If the subject has an Allergy, damage cannot be healed until the allergen's presence is removed. Finally, wounds affected by another healing spell cannot be further healed with this spell, and wounds affected by this spell cannot be further healed with another healing spell or First Aid.
Drain: (Force / 2)
+0 - Mana Spell
+0 - Sustained Duration
-2 - Touch Range
+2 - Ad Hoc; Heals Stun Damage
+4 - Ad Hoc; Prevents Death

Regrowth
Type: M Test: S Range: T Duration: P DV: (Damage Value) + 2
This spell restores the body to its full genetic health template. The spell will restore damaged organs and re-grow severed limbs (including the spine). The casters hits must equal the damage value of the desired regrowth, as shown on the following table (add the values together for multiple regeneration effects in a single casting).
The forced regrowth is excruciating for the subject. If the damage value exceeds the targets Willpower, the target is rendered helpless. Otherwise, the subject suffers a -2 modifier to all actions (treat as nausea, p. 245 SR4) for the duration of the spell. The -2 nausea penalty persists for a number of minutes after equal to (Damage Value - Willpower). If the caster does not meet the required number of successes, the spell fails and the caster must resist drain as normal. Implants that may be easily removed from the body may be rejected, at the game masters discretion, if the magician is unaware of their presence. This rarely ruins the implant (it may be re-installed with no penalty).
DV
1: Skin/Hair
2: Finger/Toe
4: Eye
6: Organ (non-vital)
8: Organ (vital)
6: Hand/Foot
8: Full Limb
12: Spinal Cord
+2: Target has healed (naturally or magically)
-half: Re-attaching severed limb.
Drain: (Damage Value)
+0 - Mana Spell
+0 - Permanent Duration (Health Spell)
-2 - Touch Range
+4 - Ad Hoc; Regenerates organs/limbs

Wither (Negative)
Type: P Test: O (BOD) Range: T Duration: S DV: (Force / 2) + 1
This spell causes the subjects body to begin consuming itself. For each Net Hit on the spellcasting test, the subject takes one point of Physical damage at the beginning of each Combat Turn (unresisted). Every (Force) Combat Turns, the subject may make a new Body + Counterspelling Test, reducing the spells Net Hits by hits achieved. If the spells hits are reduced to 0, the spell ends.
Drain: (F / 2)
+1 - Physical
-2 - Touch
+0 - Sustained
+2 - Negative

Manipulation Spells

Gelid Aura
Type: P Test: S Range: - (A) Duration: S DV: (Force / 2) + 5
This spell creates an aura of arctic cold around the caster, dealing (Hits) Cold damage to everything within range at the beginning of each Combat Turn (resisted normally). This spell covers everything in its range in a thin coating of ice (follow the rules for Ice effects, p. 164 Street Magic). The caster is immune to the damage and secondary effects caused by this spell. Effects caused by the spell outside of it's direct control (damage & ice coating) will still affect the caster normally.
Drain: (F / 2)
+1 - Physical
-2 - Very Restricted Target (Caster Only)
+2 - Area Effect
+0 - Sustained
-2 - Environmental Manipulation
+2 - Elemental Effect (Ice)
+4 - Ad-Hoc: Caster is immune to spells effects.

Concept Spells

Obviate Recovery (Prevent Healing)
Negative Health spell (sustained, touch, opposed). Reduce the amount the subject is healed by Hits. This applies to all forms of healing.

Status (Detect Life + Monitor Health)
Detection Spell. Detect Life spell with the additional effect of identifying the subjects state of health - wounds/damage, toxins, disease, etc. Pretty much anything a biomonitor can do. Amount & detail of information gained determined by Hits.



And finally, my recommended top 10 starting spells for such a character.

• Single-Target Combat Spell of Choice
• Area Combat Spell of Choice
• Contagion (Any pathogen, chosen when cast; +1 or 2 Drain)
• Decrease Attribute (Any attribute, chosen when cast; +1 or 2 Drain : : LoS; +2 Drain)
• Heal (LoS; +2 Drain)
• Increase Attribute (Any attribute, chosen when cast; +1 or 2 Drain)
• Increase Reflexes
• Wither (LoS; +2 Drain)
• Animate
• Gelid Aura

[Rad]

So I'm definitely going to be referring to this thread numerous times while I'm actually putting the character together. I wasn't expecting this much response. Thanks a bundle, guys and gals!

For more clarification on my ideas for this character:

I'd like to play him as a more neutral character, but I don't really have ideas for how he can act, personality wise to accomplish this goal. Unless someone throws out some ideas (HINT HINT), I have a feeling he's going to be drifting towards evil pretty quickly.

I like the idea for the spells (use health and illusion), but does anyone have a handful of spells they'd actually suggest using?

I really need to get my copy of street magic back from my friend... but, since I won't see him tonight, perhaps someone would be willing to fill me in: what's a possession tradition?

Finally, I see this character viewing the spirits as the spirits of the dead and his spells as the powers of Death herself channeling through him.

Thanks again for all of your help on this! I'll post the final product here once I finish him so that you can all tear him down and help me tweak him to perfection. ^_^

Afraid I can't help much on the rules angle, but I have a few ideas that may help with the concept side of things:

First off, if you want to avoid making him evil, simply give him a different perspective on death. Most people view death/killing as a bad thing simply because A) It typically doesn't feel good when you're dying B) Nobody really knows what the hell actually happens to you when you die and C) People who go there tend not to come back

All in all, that's not enough information to form an opinion on--just enough to make people witless and frightened.

Make him view death as a part of nature--a normal part of the cycle of life--and suddenly it doesn't sound so bad. Death ceases to be this dark, terrifying evil force, and becomes as normal and nessecary as winter. Killing people no longer means destroying them, just freeing them from their mortal bonds and sending them on to the next part of their journey. It's still not nice to send people off before they're ready, any more than yanking off someone's trodes when they're halfway through a good sim-flick, so he'll avoid killing whenever possible--but it's more a matter of courtesy than a big moral issue.

Sure, other people will still see him as evil, but that's just prejudice. They're ignorant about the true nature of death and that makes them scared. They just don't understand her like you do.

She's the comfort at the end of life's long struggle--like a calm and patient wife waiting for you to get home after slaving for the corps.

She the moment of rest and peace, to soothe you and prepare you for the next day.

But people fear her, go out of their way to avoid her and cheat her with unnatural technologies and magics, throwing the world out of balance...

...something has to be done about that...

...you've got to make them understand.

[ArabicJesus]

Since there was talk about possessions in here, maybe some of you can answer this question.


If I were to cast the spell Petrify, sustaining it, then prepare that person for possession by enchanting the stone statue, then possess the statue, then quit sustaining the spell, would I then have a possessed person?

It seems like a lot to go through, but I was wondering if I could do it.