Necromancy, AKA: when the dead rise again Options

[Rapier]

[...]

First off, if you want to avoid making him evil, simply give him a different perspective on death. Most people view death/killing as a bad thing simply because A) It typically doesn't feel good when you're dying B) Nobody really knows what the hell actually happens to you when you die and C) People who go there tend not to come back

All in all, that's not enough information to form an opinion on--just enough to make people witless and frightened.

[...]

But people fear her, go out of their way to avoid her and cheat her with unnatural technologies and magics, throwing the world out of balance...
...something has to be done about that...
...you've got to make them understand.

Toxic/bloody awakened NEVER sees their action as bad ones.They have an objective in their lifes that most of the people wouldn't share (as it is normal, because these guys are nuts) and they'll try the best to perform these objectives altough people arround them see them as bizarre or bad as they are. For example, this guy that shares another perspective of death would be normal if he thinks that way only for himself and doesn't try to persuade people. If these guy starts making propaganda about that or starts to persuade people, it's starting to cross the thin line between good and bad. A guy who starts killing people or raising cults of suiciders will become eventualy a evil/toxic magician. He can be persuative but still he will be evil

Jus an example, a guy who believes in survival of the fittest may train himself to be in top physical/psycological conditions. Another point of view of that is taking two guys in a room with a knife and force them to fight. He may tell you that A) This way improves metahumanity, B) the survivor would see more about himself, C) the two guys are SINless of the barrens and they'll end dead on day or other.

Altough that maybe the character is normal and the meeting with the runners may start his fall into the darker paths (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Rad]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that instead of being "evil, but in denial about it", you can make a person who genuinely *is* non-evil, but is still heavily aligned/infatuated with the powers of death.

The key is that he *doesn't* do things like pointlessly kill people, or raise suicide cults--that he looks down on things like that as much as anyone would--but for different reasons.

For him, death isn't something bad--but just like cheesecake too much of it is still a bad idea. He might even be less likely to kill people than your average runner: Seeing death as a reward, why would he send his enemies to Lady Death when he still has to stay in this world and do her work?

That's where you break the stereotype: It's not "OMG! Death is cool, lets go make lots of it!", it's "Death is good in it's proper time and place, and both life and Death must be balanced."

He'd probably have a thing about people who use life-extending technologies, but he'd be as opposed to premature death as anyone--perhaps moreso. Hell, a good way to set him up as an enemy to your runners would be to have him come down on them for *causing* too much death in their corporate smash & grabs.

In a world where everyone's trying to artificially lengthen their own lives--and artificially shorten everyone else's--this guy is like the Terra First of natural lifespan. Basically, he's serving death to ensure that it is meted out properly, instead of being resisted where it belongs and given freely where it doesn't.

[Rapier]

In that case it will be a potentiall one, but as you say, is not an evil guy

[Grinder]

In a world where everyone's trying to artificially lengthen their own lives--and artificially shorten everyone else's--this guy is like the Terra First of natural lifespan. Basically, he's serving death to ensure that it is meted out properly, instead of being resisted where it belongs and given freely where it doesn't.

Very interesting idea for this concept. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Magus]

Also would the above mentioned concept be against those who enslave the peacefully departed from their eternal rest/journey? Like the Shedim, Petro Houngans and the like.

I could see him as a radical catholic priest or somewhat.

[Angier]

[...]
But obviously, games like Diablo or Warhammer give us a wrong concep of necromancy, the men who summon undeads.

The magical traditions of Shadowrun are based in reals traditions of this world (Wicca, Voodoo, Nordic religion, Shinto,...) and this should be a good starting point.

If you wanna "play" with Death's powers, the Voodoo tradition should be the best one (you don't need to create one if they exist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) ), in fact the TRUE legend of zombies was born in this tradition (all movies before the Night of the Walking deads are based in voodoo curse and others aspects of this traditions).

I hope this info should help you in your quest.

That is rather incorrect. Necromancy literaly means "Death Seer". Necromancers were those applicants of magical or divine power who were able to commune with the deceased. Necromancy became quite popular as an academic method of occult practices in the 17th century alongside the alchemy and astrology in victorian age (and became a subsidary of the hermetical studies in this age). There exists a source (I can't remember the name of it, sorry) describing a scholar summoning a ghost who was commanded to predict the future. This image of a man commanding the dead was mixed up with the mind altering effects used to create a zombi (a person, robbed of his mind by paralizing drugs) in vodoun and santerian religious ceremonies. As the rumors also told of zombis reduced to a near death state, artists and writers started to combine the classical necromancy with vodoun practices in their works. THAT was the beginning of the necromancer commanding zombies and ghosts to his feet in order to serve him.

But to swing back at the OP: Remember that in Shadowrun, the fantasy image of necromancy also exists so there shouldn't be any problem to create a (personal, if needed) tradition who depicts both images of necromancy.

[Grimagor]

There exists a source (I can't remember the name of it, sorry) describing a scholar summoning a ghost who was commanded to predict the future.

This IS necromancy, is a method to predict the future talking to dead people.

In voodoo tradition a "priest" control the zombie and give them orders but never has been named necromancer because (as you said), necormancer mean "Death Seer", not "Death Control".

And as i say before, the magican tradition of shadowrun have deeps roots in "real" traditions in this world, a GM always have the last world, but this paralelism between real and fiction is a good starting point.

[Mäx]

And as i say before, the magican tradition of shadowrun have deeps roots in "real" traditions in this world, a GM always have the last world, but this paralelism between real and fiction is a good starting point.

Well most of the canon traditions have that, but tradition is just how you personally believe magic works. For many it's easier to follow teachings of an existing tradition put nothing stops you from just coming up with your own tradition or following a tradition from your favorite movie or book, not in rules or in fluff.

[Mickle5125]

Rad, don't take this the wrong way, but I think I love you.

Ok, now that that creepiness is out of the way, Really. That was freakin awesome. I love it. I believe I will use it... although I think I'll add a desire to ease the journey for those who are suffering because they cling to life.

*ponders* I really need to convince my gm to give me another couple hundred buildpoints. I've got ideas overflowing in my head.

On to more specifics: Arabic Jesus, I would suggest making a new topic to post your question in... that way you can generate discussion and debate all for yourself without getting it buried in another topic.


As for the actual meaning of necromancy that I'm using: I want to combine "death seer" with the video game version. Not necessarily all evil and stuff, but offensive powers, convincing the dead to attack your enemies, conversing with the dead, seeking the guidance of the spirit realm, that sort of thing.

[JBlades]

Necrophilia - the overwhelming urge to crack open a cold one.

-Siege

Mind if I borrow that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[hyzmarca]

Unless you're planning to carry a bunch of dead and rotting specimens of peak physical ability with you wherever you go, the drawbacks of possession outweigh the benefits when playing it video game style. Sure, you can gt some absurdly agile shooters by putting Guardian Spirits in max agility elves and some absurdly boddifriffic bricks by putting any spirit in a maxed-out cybertroll corpse, the simple fact is that doing this requires a great deal of planing and preparation. Even using an random suboptimal body will produce superior stats compared to a materialization spirit, but getting bodies on the fly is hard. You generally have to make someone dead first.

For video game style necromancy you're better off ghost-flavoring materialization spirits. A materializing specter is far more versatile than a zombie is.


One interesting bit of flavor you could use is with his belief in and the nature of Death. In Earthdawn, cultural beliefs about Death were fairly similar across the globe. These days, you have countless Grim Reapers and Death Gods in both traditional cultures and popular culture. Would be interesting to portray these each as being aspects of a single mentally fragmented entity, a schizophrenic Death whose many manifestations work to cross purposes, some intentionally hindering or sabotaging others in their rivalry and each having equally legitimate claim of authority. Thus, the character would be torn between conflicting loyalties to the different manifestations of the mentally ill Death and might have to work for one against another from the greater good and some points.

For spirits, I'm going to suggest

Guardian - Combat
Task - Manipulation
Guidance - Detection
Man - Illusion
Beast - Health

For spell selection, I'll recommend just going with the standard must haves for all magicians. Traditions aren't about the spells, they're about the spirits.

Also, always keep some extra guns around for your Guardians.

[Mickle5125]

question about possession spirits: If I shoot bad guy A, and he falls down and stays down, can my friendly and helpful possession spirit proceed to possess bad guy A's body, stand up, and start shooting bad guys B, C, and D?

[hyzmarca]

question about possession spirits: If I shoot bad guy A, and he falls down and stays down, can my friendly and helpful possession spirit proceed to possess bad guy A's body, stand up, and start shooting bad guys B, C, and D?

Yes, though it is a bit more complicated. If he is still alive but physically wounded then the spirit shares those wounds for the duration of the possession (the possessed form has a single physical damage track), both giving it wound penalties and making it easier to disrupt. Also, the character gets a resistance test.

If the body is dead, then you don't have to worry about wounds carrying over and the possession test is unresisted, but it still requires a test. Also, you'd need a spirit that actually has some firearms skill (which is limited to Guardian spirits). And doing so would require several actions.

After the bad guy dies the spirit must spend a complex action to possess the body, a simple (hopefully) action to pick up the weapon and ready it, and a whatever the hell type of action standing up is. Plus the actions you spend killing the bad guy and giving the spirit orders.

This is why possession isn't very useful in firefights unless you're preprepared (or have yourself possessed to boost your reaction and agility but even this is a crapshoot due to the number of services you'll be spending to micromanage the spirit's use of your body).

[Riley37]

So if you have possession non-Guardian spirits, then instead of using a gun, they might be better off using Unarmed Combat, especially if the host body had good stats. Even a STR2 AGL2 mundane, possessed by a F5 Spirit of Man, can apply a subdual hold that many targets will not be able to escape. (The possessed body has AGL 7 and Unarmed Combat 5, thus DP 12 to hit, and once it hits, DP 12 vs. the targets STR+UC.)

Mages who plan to have spirits possess them should learn Channelling as their first metamagic.

Hm, a mystic adept with stat-boosting possession spirits, Channelling, and the usual set of Unarmed Combat powers...

If you go with Hyzmarca's concept and take materializing spirits, some of them might appear as the Grim Reaper. Guardian spirit with Exotic Melee Weapon: Scythe, FTW.

The idea of a mage who values balance in death is awesome. Racist variation: she's an elf, and thus the premature death of an elf is a serious tragedy to avert, while adults orc are already within decades of their proper expiration date.

There's also a "more is better" approach to death, in which case graveyards may be favorable mana zones, a Geasa could require killing (daily?), and limited compatibility with anyone else who prefers to stay living. Twisted. But how does the mage justify their own continuing life? Pure denial, or "for the greater good", kinda like the Goodlife humans in Saberhagen's Berserker stories?

[Riley37]

What if you carry corpses of killer bees and scorpions, and have spirits possess those to act as mini-drones?
Well, they can't do much better than an ordinary drone, but still, I like the image.

[Mickle5125]

Yes, though it is a bit more complicated. If he is still alive but physically wounded then the spirit shares those wounds for the duration of the possession (the possessed form has a single physical damage track), both giving it wound penalties and making it easier to disrupt. Also, the character gets a resistance test.

If the body is dead, then you don't have to worry about wounds carrying over and the possession test is unresisted, but it still requires a test. Also, you'd need a spirit that actually has some firearms skill (which is limited to Guardian spirits). And doing so would require several actions.

After the bad guy dies the spirit must spend a complex action to possess the body, a simple (hopefully) action to pick up the weapon and ready it, and a whatever the hell type of action standing up is. Plus the actions you spend killing the bad guy and giving the spirit orders.

This is why possession isn't very useful in firefights unless you're preprepared (or have yourself possessed to boost your reaction and agility but even this is a crapshoot due to the number of services you'll be spending to micromanage the spirit's use of your body).

ahh, but it still has the benefits of "OMG Bill just stood up and started shooting at US! HE WAS DEAD!!!"

[Mickle5125]

If you go with Hyzmarca's concept and take materializing spirits, some of them might appear as the Grim Reaper. Guardian spirit with Exotic Melee Weapon: Scythe, FTW.

OK, you have no clue how tempting you just made materializing spirits...

So now I'm back to being uncertain which way to go...

Materialization or Possession?

[hyzmarca]

At this point, the dead rising up and shooting at people is an almost mundane occurrence. The real confusion comes from the fact that they don't know if it is an unfriendly voodoo spirit of some sort of a flesh-eating shedim. In 2070, coffins have heavy duty locks not to keep graverobbers out but to make sure the body stays in.

[Cardul]

At this point, the dead rising up and shooting at people is an almost mundane occurrence. The real confusion comes from the fact that they don't know if it is an unfriendly voodoo spirit of some sort of a flesh-eating shedim. In 2070, coffins have heavy duty locks not to keep graverobbers out but to make sure the body stays in.

Isn't cremation becoming more and more popular again? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

Isn't cremation becoming more and more popular again? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

To the point where they don't even want urns of ashes any longer. Just total destruction of the bodily remains.

Unfortunetly, not every religion allows for cremation.