Control Thoughts Question, Is suicide really the answer? Options

[TheWizKid]

I'm playing a magician in my SR4 game who has the Control Thoughts spell. When faced with a sniper who was attacking a teammate of mine, I decided that the best way to deal with this guy was to cast Control Thoughts on him, make him point his sniper rifle into his mouth, and pull the trigger. The Force of the spell was 6, so he was able to do this within the 6 Combat turns I was allowed to control him with before he got another Willpower roll to break free.

The guy blew his brains out, and the GM didnt even bother rolling for damage to kill the guy. Obviously, the GM did not want me to continue to make his difficult encounters blow their own brains out in an anti-climatic fashion with one spell, but he could not find anywhere in the rules where it said I could not do this. He made a house rule which lowered the drain value of the spell by one and did not allow any suicidal actions to be used with the spell.

I'm curious how other groups have handled this problem, or if our group has simply overlooked a rule somewhere which covers this problem. Thanks!

[Stahlseele]

don't people get an instant roll to see if they resist a potential harmfull/lethal controlling?

[FrankTrollman]

Casting Control Thoughts is a Complex Action. Actually making them do anything is a Simple Action. So they always get an action to try to shoot you in the face or something. If you just want to kill a dude, you're much better off with Mana Bolt.

-Frank

[Stahlseele]

but if you just wanna have him throw his weapon down a flight of stairs of jump down or run into a wall face first, it's your best choice *g*

[TheWizKid]

don't people get an instant roll to see if they resist a potential harmfull/lethal controlling?

Do they? Thats what I'm curious about. I haven't been able to find that rule in the books or errata yet.

Casting Control Thoughts is a Complex Action. Actually making them do anything is a Simple Action. So they always get an action to try to shoot you in the face or something. If you just want to kill a dude, you're much better off with Mana Bolt.

-Frank

Alright, so my first turn I take that Complex Action to cast the spell on some guy with a gun. Now, it doesn't say anything about the victim of the spell knowing that he's under the spell (like Mind Probe does.) So he's not going to automatically shoot me in the face, especially if he's either unaware of me or distracted by somebody else in the fight. Unless there is some rule, like Stahlseele suggested, that they get an additional roll or something to resist harmful actions, wouldn't this spell be perfect for auto-kills when the target is holding a lethal weapon? Mana bolt still does a set amount of damage to a target, whereas a few bullets through the head is kind of hard for the GM to explain how he survived and is not in a coma at the moment. (This is assuming the target is just some normal metahuman without some kind of bullet-proof head. Helmets can be ordered to be removed if they are wearing them.)

[DireRadiant]

Casting a spell, especially powerful ones, at high force, can be noticed by anyone.

Also don't forget that vision modifiers will apply when casting the spell on the sniper.

[Jrayjoker]

The only limits I recall being explicitly stated are from that other game, here is the text from the BBB:

"The caster seizes control of the target’s mind, directing everything
the target does. The caster mentally gives commands
with a Simple Action and the target is compelled to obey." SR4, p203.

It seems to me that control thoughts is a misnomer if the spell allows you to, "direct[] everything the target does."

AS a GM I would ask what thought is put into the target's head. Was it, "I am infected with VITAS, I have to kill myself to save myself the agony," or, "I think shooting myself in the face is a good idea?"

In my game, one might work, the other would get a free roll to see if it can be resisted more.

[TheWizKid]

Casting a spell, especially powerful ones, at high force, can be noticed by anyone.

Are there mechanics for mundanes to detect a spell being cast, or is it at the GM's discretion? And even if they know a powerful spell went off, can they determine the source or even the direction at which it was cast?

[Jrayjoker]

"NOTICING MAGIC
Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most
spells and spirits have little, if any, visible eff ect in the physical
world (unless the magician prefers to have fl ashy eff ects, or her
tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magician’s
intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, and
small gestures. Magicians of some traditions display a more
visible change when practicing magic known as the shamanic
mask. Th e shamanic mask typically changes the magician’s
features temporarily to display characteristics appropriate to
her mentor spirit or tradition—an eagle shaman, for example,
might seem to have feathers or beaklike features while spellcasting
or summoning.
Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a
Perception Test (p. 117) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the
magic’s Force—more powerful magic is easier to spot. Th e gamemaster
should apply additional modifi ers as appropriate, or if
the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving
(+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice).


A sneaky shaman is working up a spell to control
Zack’s actions, so the gamemaster rolls a secret
Perception Test for Zack to see if he notices it coming.
Zack’s not Awakened, but the Raven shaman’s birdlike
shamanic mask adds 2 dice to Zack’s dice pool of
6. Zack rolls 8 dice and gets 3 hits. Th e shaman’s spell
is Force 4, so Zack only needed 2 hits (6 – 4) to see him
working up the spell." Page 168, SR4

[Jrayjoker]

I would apply a minimum threshold of 1 and if the target is not watching the caster add to the difficulty.

[TheWizKid]

Alright, so its not like they get a cold shiver down their spine or some other kind of sensation? They just have to see me staring at them hard and maybe waving my arms around and chanting a spell? (Not that spells require chanting or small gestures, unless Centering, so I'm confused as to why that was used in the example.) A simple Invisibility spell should make this Perception check obsolete, right? I mean, I know the conditions for this scenario are becoming more specific, but it still seems pretty damn cheesy and more effective compared to a regular combat spell.

[DireRadiant]

It's up to you how you describe, in a way it could be every mundanes un awakened astral/assensing that's giving them the hint.

[Jrayjoker]

I think you played the game right per the RAW (rules as written). I can also see the GM's point not wanting a game breaking spell overused.

[TheWizKid]

Yeah, totally, I would do the same thing as a GM. I was just wondering if other groups encountered this, or if there was something we overlooked in the rules. (I'm a noob, and the GM admitted that Magic was his weakest area of knowledge with the game.)

[Jrayjoker]

Yeah, totally, I would do the same thing as a GM. I was just wondering if other groups encountered this, or if there was something we overlooked in the rules. (I'm a noob, and the GM admitted that Magic was his weakest area of knowledge with the game.)

Welcome noobie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[RunnerPaul]

or if our group has simply overlooked a rule somewhere which covers this problem.

Many sniper rifles have barrels long enough that sticking the end in your mouth makes reaching the trigger an unwieldy proposition?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Of course, SR4 has neat toys like wireless-enabled smartgun hardware which could negate this limitation, but all the same, just sayin'.

[Apathy]

A simple Invisibility spell should make this Perception check obsolete, right?

A successful invisibility spell (which is itself resisted) would apply an 8-dice modifier to the target's perception check. That would make the Perception test much less likely, but still theoretically possible.

So in the scenario listed

• Force = 6 => Threshold 0 (minimum 1)
• Target mundane => -2 perception dice
• If shamanic, then +2 perception dice. I don't remember anything in RAW indicating that the mask is negated by invisibility (could also have the etherial baying of hounds in the background of the dog shaman, or the swamp stench of the gator shaman, I guess)
• Apply visibility modifiers as appropriate (smoke, darkness, partial cover, etc.) Note that these same visibility modifiers would apply to the mage's success test for casting the spell. It's not stated, but I assume that the caster is not invisible.
• As a sniper, he's probably got decent perception and int, so more than likely he is aware of the spell being cast unless the caster is invisible.
• Casting the spell is a complex action. The mage will have to wait until the next combat pass to issue any instructions since he doesn't have a simple action available this pass. During that time, the sniper can use his available action to take out the mage.
• A force 6 manabolt would have taken the target out more easily, with lower drain, and not given the sniper the opportunity to shoot back.
• Just like PCs, the NPC target could burn a point of edge in order to escape their certain death.

[TheWizKid]

A successful invisibility spell (which is itself resisted) would apply an 8-dice modifier to the target's perception check. That would make the Perception test much less likely, but still theoretically possible.

So in the scenario listed

• Force = 6 => Threshold 0 (minimum 1)
• Target mundane => -2 perception dice
• If shamanic, then +2 perception dice. I don't remember anything in RAW indicating that the mask is negated by invisibility (could also have the etherial baying of hounds in the background of the dog shaman, or the swamp stench of the gator shaman, I guess)
• Apply visibility modifiers as appropriate (smoke, darkness, partial cover, etc.) Note that these same visibility modifiers would apply to the mage's success test for casting the spell. It's not stated, but I assume that the caster is not invisible.
• As a sniper, he's probably got decent perception and int, so more than likely he is aware of the spell being cast unless the caster is invisible.
• Casting the spell is a complex action. The mage will have to wait until the next combat pass to issue any instructions since he doesn't have a simple action available this pass. During that time, the sniper can use his available action to take out the mage.
• A force 6 manabolt would have taken the target out more easily, with lower drain, and not given the sniper the opportunity to shoot back.
• Just like PCs, the NPC target could burn a point of edge in order to escape their certain death.

Well, the Force 6 spell against a sniper was just the example in my gaming group of when it happened. The Force of the spell could be much lower, as it doesn't take many Combat turns to point a gun to your own head and pull the trigger. Doesn't have to be a sniper, obviously.

Also, under the description of the Shaman tradition, it says "This phenomenon is called a shamanic mask
(see Noticing Magic, p. 168). A player can choose whether or not this effect is apparent for her character." on page 170 of the SR4 book. So yeah, I choose not to have that effect apparent.

That is a good point about the Edge though. But now its the difference between doing raw damage with a Manabolt in my first turn without stealth and doing an action on my second turn with stealth which forces the GM to use the Hand of God rule.

[Stahlseele]

i think the GM did a good thing with that . . you don't have to make them kill themselves to get them out of your way, it is enough in the case of the sniper to have him throw his rifle down from the roof top . . and could one use this spell for lasting effects? like:"from now on, every time you aim for me, you will miss by at least 5m"?
or better yet, take over the sniper and have him snipe for you *g*

[TheWizKid]

i think the GM did a good thing with that . . you don't have to make them kill themselves to get them out of your way, it is enough in the case of the sniper to have him throw his rifle down from the roof top . . and could one use this spell for lasting effects? like:"from now on, every time you aim for me, you will miss by at least 5m"?
or better yet, take over the sniper and have him snipe for you *g*

That sounds more like the Influence spell. Control Thoughts is sustained for as long as you retain net hits on the target. Your original spellcasting roll and Force determines the hits you get, compared to the target's Willpower (+ Counterspelling if they can.) Every Force amount of Combat Turns, they can roll their Willpower again, and those hits reduce the net hits you gained orginally, until the spell is broken at 0 net hits.

[DireRadiant]

Well, the Force 6 spell against a sniper was just the example in my gaming group of when it happened. The Force of the spell could be much lower, as it doesn't take many Combat turns to point a gun to your own head and pull the trigger. Doesn't have to be a sniper, obviously.

Don't forget that the Force caps the hits for a spell. This may make it less effective.

[Mäx]

Your mage must have pretty good perception dice pool to be casting spells on a sniper.

[TheWizKid]

Yeah, lets just forget I said the word "sniper." I think its distracting people from the point here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Irian]

To be honest, I don't see many problems here. Most Sams should be able to kill someone with three simple actions, why shouldn't a mage be able to? A stun spell is much more dangerous than that. If I would want the NPC to survive, I simply would give him Edge... So whats the problem?

[Apathy]

Control Thoughts is much more effective when it's used to make the teammates kill one another, instead of just kill themselves. It's an evil GM (grin) who makes the mage kill the sammy because the sammy just got mind controlled and will pull the pins on his grenades at point-blank range on his next available turn.