Six-HUNDRED Nuyen for changing a lightbulb!?, Or the cost of Build/Repair skills. Options

[Sir_Psycho]

So you have the tools and you have the skills. So the books say you can build and repair things. This is of course, an abstraction, which I'm fine with. However, it doesn't seem right that just because I have a workshop and a decent dicepool, that I can whip my hacker up a new Simsense Accelerator modification for my commlink for free. What about parts?

So how do you handle Build/Repair skills. Do you have some guideline for charging runners for materials?

I was thinking something like 10%/20%/30% (of cost) times threshold + Availability.

So I want to build myself a cryptosense module to go with my commlink.

Cryptosense Module:
1000:nuyen"
Avail: 8
Threshold: (Build and Repair table p.125 BBB) It's either complex or intricate, for a threshold of either 8 or 12. I'm going to go with 8.

5% of 1k is 50, x (8 + 8 = 16) = 800:nuyen:

Hmm... that seems a bit steep. Let's try this again.

Ok, how about the percentage cost of parts is Availability + Item Complexity. To use the Cryptosense Module example again. Parts cost 16% of the RRP. 160:nuyen:

That sounds better. Perhaps it could be x2 for Restricted and x3 for Forbidden.

What do you do when characters want to build and repair things during downtime? Do you just let them build it without paying anything for parts? How do you justify it? Handwavery? Roleplaying?

[Cardul]

Actually..I think your first number is better. 800 Nuyen for something that normally costs 1K Nuyen. This represents that you have to get these parts, and your fixer has to get them first. You cannot buy these parts off the shelf, after all, since we know that, on the shelf, they have RFID's, and, of course, if you want to make it yourself, it is probably of high legal questionability. Also, it takes into account waste, and, well, if you have ever made something, you know that even the best(and even a successful roll) will not get it made perfectly.

Now, if you are making something legal and legally? Half its cost in materials.

[Ryu]

It is an abstraction, SR assumes 50% of the list price (main book, last page of the wireless chapter).

[Sir_Psycho]

Actually..I think your first number is better. 800 Nuyen for something that normally costs 1K Nuyen. This represents that you have to get these parts, and your fixer has to get them first. You cannot buy these parts off the shelf, after all, since we know that, on the shelf, they have RFID's, and, of course, if you want to make it yourself, it is probably of high legal questionability. Also, it takes into account waste, and, well, if you have ever made something, you know that even the best(and even a successful roll) will not get it made perfectly.

Now, if you are making something legal and legally? Half its cost in materials.

A saving of only 200:nuyen: isn't really worth the time (likely days) it will take to make it. In a couple of days a runner could easily make that money in a number of different ways.

Also, the algorithm really breaks down with other items. Take the Mossberg AM-CMDT a 1000:nuyen: also, but with an availability of 12R. I'll go with complex for this, too.

Method 1: 5% of 1000 = 50 x (8+12=) 20 = 1000:nuyen:

Hilarious. It costs exactly retail price.

Method 2: 8+12 =20avail. x2 (Restricted) = 400:nuyen: in parts to build an automatic shotgun.

Now I'll apply it to a sniper rifle. I'll base it on the Ranger Arms SM-4.

Avail. 16F
Cost 6200:nuyen:
Complexity: Intricate (I imagine making an accurate sniper rifle that folds into a briefcase is hard) 12.

5% = 310
12 + 16 = 28
310 x 28 = 8,680:nuyen:
Why would anyone get a B/R skill?

Method 2:
12 + 16 = 28 x 3 (Forbidden) = 84% = 5,208:nuyen:


Hmm... I quite like this rule. I might start using it in my games.

[Heath Robinson]

I would be comfortable with it costing nearly as much, if not more, to account for the fact that most production gets better returns from scale, even in the underworld there will be producers that will have a large enough scale that they will be able to offer reasonable goods at a far lower price than any player character can produce. The additional cost can be thought of as the cost of the luxury of guaranteed privacy.

[Sir_Psycho]

Although the fact that self-built hardware is unique sort of kneecaps the intended privacy bonus.

Although, to represent that bigger operations can get it done cheaper, perhaps there should be a modifier based on tools? +5% Kit, 0% Shop and -5% Facility? Not to mention that corps and underworld producers could get the parts cheaper.

[nezumi]

This is not an easy question, as it tries to address the different manufacturing methods and degree of markup we see in products. For instance, how much does it cost to make a strand of fiber optic cable with your shop? Probably MORE than it costs to just buy it from the store (the markup on cables is pretty thin, and it requires expensive specialized machines to do it). On the flip side, how much does it cost to build a computer from COTS pieces? Probably around 50% or less than what you'd pay at the store, especially since you can swap in used parts in some cases with no appreciable difference (for instance, a used case). This becomes even more prominent when it comes down to soft goods, such as designs or software. While Adobe Illustrator is way overpriced at $800, it would be impossible to make a program with the same amount of functionality without spending well over $800 in time and effort. Similarly, designing and building a processor from scratch would also be almost impossible to do economically.

So in general, I separate things into categories, and a single product may require several basic products from different categories.

Soft products (designs and programs) generally don't require financial investment beyond the shop and testing gear you have, but require significant time.

Basic components/materials require a lot of money in that generally they require an entire facility to make them, and have fairly low profit margins. So things like wires, integrated circuits, screens, etc. are usually not worth producing at home.

Devices would be small, specialized devices like the cryptosense module above. I haven't come up with a general rule for these, since no one has asked to make one yet (thank goodness). The costs vary. Generally I'd expect that the actual cost of the item will be close to the normal market value, but it'll take a good deal of time. Corporations can buy parts en masse, unlike you, and they're usually assembled by basic robots taking advantage of assembly lines. You really can't compete there, however if you can get the parts cheap, and restricted items with inflated street values may be worth building this way. Also worthwhile for things where you want to keep the details of its operation a secret (such as cryptographic devices).

Finally is complex devices made of multiple smaller parts, such as computers and cars. I generally go with the rule from vehicle repair, which would be that when you buy one of these, about half of the cost is for the manpower putting the device together, the other half is from parts. So building your computer may take a little longer, but it'll cost about 50% less. Similarly, you could build a vehicle from parts (assuming you can get a reasonable price for them) for about 50% of the street value, if you have enough time. This is great if you have multiple broken down vehicles of the same model, since you can grab pieces back and forth to fix an entire functional one for very little cost.

[Sir_Psycho]

I've reflected some of those concepts in my rules (such as the higher the complexity, the higher the parts cost, although it doesn't have such flexibility that particular items could actually cost more to make yourself.

Conceptually (and not economically or industrially realistically) I would assume that corporations make things for much less (half my build costs, at least), and I like the idea that with mass production techniques, our goods don't get any cheaper and workers don't get worked any less hard, the corps just make more money and we'll buy what they sell us.

Sure, you can build it yourself, but it would be a very select few who have the skills, equipment and contacts to do so (Shadowrunners, please). Most who have the ability would probably have corp jobs. So it makes sense that the small underground dealers and resourceful runners can still carve out a bit of an advantage with their skills.

[DireRadiant]

It is an abstraction, SR assumes 50% of the list price (main book, last page of the wireless chapter).

"Parts costs are always half the cost of
buying a hardware upgrade."

[imperialus]

If you're factoring availability into the cost of materials doesn't it also make sense to factor it into the 'off the shelf' model?

Say a runner with slightly above average charisma and negotiation netting him 8 dice total (KISS so he can buy 2 successes a day).

This means that if he wants to buy that Mossberg he is going to be spending 6 days to do so. Say he decides to add an extra 8 dice each day, netting him 4 successes per day so he can get the gun in 3 days. However this means that each day he's adding another 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) onto the bill. At the end of the day his gun costs him 4000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Siege]

Maglock passkeys.

-Siege

[nezumi]

Right, maglock passkeys have an artificially high cost because of legal restrictions. In this case, making them yourself should make them a good deal cheaper than they would be on the street.

[Zaranthan]

Making your own passkey doesn't get a huge discount. If an item is heavily restricted, then so are its components.

[Siege]

And the counter-argument is: what magical component in a maglock passkey is so rare or difficult or complicated that someone couldn't produce on their own?

Deckers can scratch-build entire decks for less than what a mid-range maglock passkey costs.

-Siege

[Zaranthan]

A critical component of the maglock passkey is the feedback strip used to emulate the needed key. Most passkeys are made out of a simple alloy, but the strip needs to be at least 50% unobtainium in order to change its passcode according to electrical input. You don't need much for the strip, but it's availability 18 and costs a few thousand nuyen for the ounce or so you need to process it into the right shape.

Coming up with a better name for unobtainium is your problem, since I'm not the one you need to convince.

[Siege]

Hah! That was essentially my GM's response as well.

-Siege

[Faelan]

Generally speaking I figure the manufacturer need to make at least a 20% margin, followed by the wholesaler making a similar percentage, followed by the retailer with another similar percentage. So if you have a nice machine shop and can purchase raw materials (not necessarily ore), you can save a ton of money, however you will be making a pretty large time investment unless you have spent some serious nuyen on the machining equipment. The main advantage to making the stuff yourself, is quality assurance, customization, availability, deniable assets, potential source of additional income, and of course pure coolness factor (as the A team theme rolls in the background) as you convert assorted vehicles into armored machines of death and destruction.

[Rapier]

[...]

Also, the algorithm really breaks down with other items. Take the Mossberg AM-CMDT a 1000:nuyen: also, but with an availability of 12R. I'll go with complex for this, too.

Method 1: 5% of 1000 = 50 x (8+12=) 20 = 1000:nuyen:

Hilarious. It costs exactly retail price.

Method 2: 8+12 =20avail. x2 (Restricted) = 400:nuyen: in parts to build an automatic shotgun.

Now I'll apply it to a sniper rifle. I'll base it on the Ranger Arms SM-4.

Avail. 16F
Cost 6200:nuyen:
Complexity: Intricate (I imagine making an accurate sniper rifle that folds into a briefcase is hard) 12.

5% = 310
12 + 16 = 28
310 x 28 = 8,680:nuyen:
Why would anyone get a B/R skill?

Method 2:
12 + 16 = 28 x 3 (Forbidden) = 84% = 5,208:nuyen:

Hmm... I quite like this rule. I might start using it in my games.

I think this prices are quite expensive but i think the tools you have at hand may lower the costs. For example, the sniper rifle can be that expensive if you try to make it using a workbench. Other thing is to manufacturate it if you have precision machinery that could save you from making imperfect parts or helping you on a better assembly of them. At least this goes like that on real life: better manufacturing processes means lower cost of manufacture. Of course this could be one of a hundred hand-made solutions.

Altough that, I usually see B/R skills as repairing skills or manufacture of experimental or new market weapons, vehicles,... the runners may catch during especific jobs

[Siege]

The other reason I brought up the maglock passkey is the problem of runners making more money by doing things other than running - car theft and maglock passkeys are two prime examples.

I'm a huge fan of building and customizing gear, but at the same time it's a fine line most likely to be crossed by players trying to power build - it's a concern for GMs trying to manage the power escalation in their game.

-Siege

[hyzmarca]

A critical component of the maglock passkey is the feedback strip used to emulate the needed key. Most passkeys are made out of a simple alloy, but the strip needs to be at least 50% unobtainium in order to change its passcode according to electrical input. You don't need much for the strip, but it's availability 18 and costs a few thousand nuyen for the ounce or so you need to process it into the right shape.

Coming up with a better name for unobtainium is your problem, since I'm not the one you need to convince.

The problem with that explination is that maglock passkeys already exist and are pretty cheap to make.

[Zaranthan]

And exactly how is that supposed to emulate a RFID tag?