Ork life expectancy, How long do they live? Options

[evil_bacteria]

In SR3, Orks had a listed life expectancy of forty years. I always took that to mean an average, that was brought down by the sheer number of young deaths. Another way to say it is that I assumed Orks live as long as Humans, but are more likely to die early, which lowers the average life span.

It's no secret that Orks are a metaphor for blacks in America, and the average lifespan for a black man is roughly ten years less than that of a white man. This is not because black people just don't live as long, but it's an average brought down by the young deaths caused by the sheer number of blacks living in poverty and violence. Thus, I've always it's the same deal with Orks, that if the socio-economic factors were equalized, Orks would live as long as Humans.

Some adventure written for SR1 or SR2 (I forget which) made it clear that the author felt Orks simply aged faster, so a thirty-year-old NPC was all wrinkled and decrepit. I think that's a misunderstanding of what the SR team intended, but what does everyone else think?

[Lordmalachdrim]

If I recall the SR2 core book coincided with the adventure your talking about.

[Faelan]

I think the intention was for orks to have shorter lifespans. All the supporting documentation in Earthdawn supports this. Some of it may have to do with lifestyle, nutrition, youthful deaths, but most of it just comes down to the fact that their natural lifespans are not that long. Real Old Age is in their 40's or 50's.

[WearzManySkins]

Actually the data on the Orks is just plain BS, even from Earthdawn.

Do the math, the number you are looking at is 69 is in the number of offspring a female Ork can have in her "limited" lifespan, do that for the rest of the Orks and SR4 world is carpeted in Orks.

Also to carry 4+ baby Orks in a pregnancy, means a female Ork has better food digestion/extraction than all the Cyberware/Bioware/Nanoware for such.

Again a "Gee Whiz" idea from some Dev/Freelancer who did not have a clue.

WMS

[Adarael]

I've always been firmly in the camps that Orks live longer than some have seen. "Real old age" cannot be 40s or 50s for orks any more than 60 is "real old age" for humans in 2070s. That is to say, sure, maybe it is - if you've never taken care of yourself or your life has been really hard. I think Orks on average live about 20 years less than a human in optimal circumstances, and maybe 10 less in sub-optimal circumstances. So if we ignore the "worldwide lifespan" in sr4 which obviously takes into account people living shit lives in 3rd world mud huts, we can assume that with the level of medical tech available, lifespans are probably:

OPTIMAL
Human: 100-110 years
Ork: 80-90 years

'MIDDLE' LIFESTYLE
Human: 75-85
Ork: 65-75

CRAPPY/3RD WORLD (discounting violence)
Human: 60-65
Ork: 55-60. The low difference here is owing the fact that orks tend to be MORE marginalized than humans, ergo in worse areas, but have drastically higher physical stats to compensate.

[hyzmarca]

Some orks age very rapidly. Some don't. No one knows why.

Also to carry 4+ baby Orks in a pregnancy, means a female Ork has better food digestion/extraction than all the Cyberware/Bioware/Nanoware for such.

http://www.twinstuff.com/houoctup.htm

I think space is the bigger issue. The ability to bring multiple ork children to term requires a rather large uterus. But normal humans can carry 4 or more.

[WearzManySkins]

Some orks age very rapidly. Some don't. No one knows why.

http://www.twinstuff.com/houoctup.htm

I think space is the bigger issue. The ability to bring multiple ork children to term requires a rather large uterus. But normal humans can carry 4 or more.

Nice link but I am referring to amount of calories/nutrients that carrying more than one baby puts on the mother carrying same. Also most Ork mothers will not get several months of bed rest, like in your link.

As for space most multiple birth babies are way under the average weight of single births.

The uterus is a adaptive organ able to grow to the size needed for most births. Now the size of the birth canal will enable a baby to more easily pass into the world.

Define a "Normal" Human? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Aaron]

I think space is the bigger issue. The ability to bring multiple ork children to term requires a rather large uterus. But normal humans can carry 4 or more.

You seem to be assuming a lot about the birth weight of the average ork. I don't remember if the gestation period is stated at any point in your hymnal, but if it is I'd be willing to bet it's significantly shorter (like more than 30% shorter) than the average human's. Gestation period in mammals is proportional to birth weight.

[WearzManySkins]

You seem to be assuming a lot about the birth weight of the average ork. I don't remember if the gestation period is stated at any point in your hymnal, but if it is I'd be willing to bet it's significantly shorter (like more than 30% shorter) than the average human's. Gestation period in mammals is proportional to birth weight.

You are correct RAW gestation period is 6 months.

WMS

[Aaron]

So the birth weight of an ork is probably around 1 kg (about the same mass as a kitten), making them easy to birth in batches and most likely the cutest metahuman babies ever.

[Trigger]

So the birth weight of an ork is probably around 1 kg (about the same mass as a kitten), making them easy to birth in batches and most likely the cutest metahuman babies ever.

'Aww Mom, can I keep it? I promise I fill feed him and walk him and keep him eatting the little elf children around the neighborhood. Please?'

[WearzManySkins]

So the birth weight of an ork is probably around 1 kg (about the same mass as a kitten), making them easy to birth in batches and most likely the cutest metahuman babies ever.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) 2.2 pounds in birth weight?!?!?! the survival rate for current day babies of that birth weight is not that good. Octuplets have a greater birth weight than that.

Multiple-birth infants are usually admitted to neonatal intensive care immediately after being born. The records for all the triplet pregnancies managed and delivered from 1992-1996 were looked over to see what the neonatal statistics were. Kaufman et al. [12] found from reviewing these files that during a five year period, 55 triplet pregnancies, which is 165 babies, were delivered. Of the 165 babies 149 were admitted to neonatal intensive care after the delivery. That is 90% of the babies born.

More factual figures on multiple birth gestation periods

40 weeks is considered a full-term singleton pregnancy; however few higher-order multiple birth pregnancies last a full 40 weeks because the length of pregnancy decreases with each additional baby.

More than 50 percent of twins, more than 90 percent of triplets, and virtually all quadruplets and higher multiples are born preterm (Hoyert, Et al. 2006).

On average most:

* singleton pregnancies last 39 weeks
* twin pregnancies last 35 weeks
* triplet pregnancies last 33 weeks
* quadruplets pregnancies last 29 weeks (ASRM, 2006).

According to the MOST Medical Birth Survey, the average gestation for multiples is approximately:

* 35 weeks for twins
* 33 weeks for triplets
* 31 weeks for quadruplets
* 29 weeks for quintuplets
* 29 weeks for sextuplets

But again the nutritional aspect of carrying 4+ babies even for 6 months is being side stepped.

WMS

[Aaron]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) 2.2 pounds in birth weight?!?!?! the survival rate for current day babies of that birth weight is not that good. Octuplets have a greater birth weight than that.

You seem to have forgotten that we're not talking about human babies, current day or otherwise.

Also, remind me how long octuplets usually gestate? EDIT: Never mind, I used my Data Search skill. It seems that the first surviving octuplets born in the US were born thirteen weeks premature (except one who was born 15 weeks premature), and all of them had birth weights less than a kilogram. Here's a link. Here's another to Wikipedia.

But again the nutritional aspect of carrying 4+ babies even for 6 months is being side stepped.

Good point. I imagine that pregnant-ork-eating-all-the-time jokes are a hoot on the sitcom sims.

[hyzmarca]

Given that orks have a natural +2 to Body, meaning that a baby will be born with a Body score of 3, I very much doubt that they are usually premature or underweight.

[WearzManySkins]

You seem to have forgotten that we're not talking about human babies, current day or otherwise. Also, remind me how long octuplets usually gestate?

Good point. I imagine that pregnant-ork-eating-all-the-time jokes are a hoot on the sitcom sims.

No I am not, Orks are a subspecies of Humanity just as are Caucasians, Asians, Africans etc, they do not give birth to "Kitties".

Again the Devs/Freelancers did not go thru enough research instead went for the "Neat" factor.

Maternal Nutrition in Multiple PregnancyMaternal Nutrition in Multiple Pregnancy

The recommended amount of protein for twin pregnancy is at least 110 grams daily. For triplets, 140-150 grams daily.

By the end of a twin pregnancy your blood volume will have increased by 70-80% of your pre pregnant status.3 Even more in a triplet pregnancy. This is a considerable amount that you need to acquire partly by hydration (drinking enough fluids) and adequate protein intake. Without enough calories in your diet, approximately 3,000 for twins, you won't have the energy for baby building and carrying on much of your activities of daily living.

Calcium is very important in the last half of pregnancy, (during the last two trimesters). The last trimester is when half the calcium required by the fetus will be deposited in the fetal bones. If you are not taking in enough calcium then the babies will take it from your bones, this is not beneficial to you after menopause. The required amount is 1,600-2,000 mg. per day for a twin/triplet pregnancy.

You can see the increase from 2 to 3 babies, as for scaling it beyond that ....

WMS

[Aaron]

No I am not, Orks are a subspecies of Humanity just as are Caucasians, Asians, Africans etc, they do not give birth to "Kitties".

Er ... you know, I may be wrong about this, but if you apply that logic, then trolls and dwarfs have the same birth weight and gestation expectations as humans would.

Incidentally, my calculation was based on a 6-month gestation period for a mammal. A human fetus is about 1 kg after six months of gestation. So, you see, my supposition is based on humanity, sub-species or otherwise. Or should I take your point to be that ork cell division and differentiation is faster than other mammals?

[WearzManySkins]

Er ... you know, I may be wrong about this, but if you apply that logic, then trolls and dwarfs have the same birth weight and gestation expectations as humans would.

Incidentally, my calculation was based on a 6-month gestation period for a mammal. A human fetus is about 1 kg after six months of gestation. So, you see, my supposition is based on humanity, sub-species or otherwise. Or should I take your point to be that ork cell division and differentiation is faster than other mammals?

No until recently birth weighs are different by race, ie Asians have lesser birth weights, Africans larger birth weights, Nordic/Germanic larger birth Weights, Pygmies have smaller birth weights. Gestational time periods with all factors being the same, are the same for single births.

No I do not say the cell division for Orks is any different for for Elves, humans etc.

Now is that 6 month gestational period for orks due in part for the multiple births?

In modern humans, more babies shorter gestational period.

Now to clarify my point, the Devs/Freelancers did not do good research into gestational periods, multiple birth nutritional needs, etc when they came up with the figures for Orks birth rate, gestational periods, etc. Saying it was so in Earthdawn is BS. That means they continued the mistakes from Earthdawn with out even looking at the numbers.

A female ork who was in the first generation of Orks, would over her expected lifespan of 40 years, turning fertile at age 10, having quad births, twice a year, with only 1 female ork surviving or each birth to start her breeding cycle would have 69 female breeding offspring/desendants, the number escalate from there. The female ork would consume ~3,500+ calories and 200 grams of protein per day. That is 1,277,500 calories per year, and 73 kg of protein per year. Multiply that by the beginning population numbers for Orks. Again a female ork puts to shame all the cyberware/bioware/nanoware in her ability to process the nutrition needed to give to her births.

In the end Orks Carpet the World and consume 200%+ of the food resources. This number does not track the males, since fewer males are needed to breed the females.

WMS

[RunnerPaul]

Saying it was so in Earthdawn is BS. That means they continued the mistakes from Earthdawn with out even looking at the numbers.

Point of clarification: Shadowrun, as a game system, had gestational periods, birth weights, and number of young detailed for each of the races years before Earthdawn was even created.

[WearzManySkins]

Point of clarification: Shadowrun, as a game system, had gestational periods, birth weights, and number of young detailed for each of the races years before Earthdawn was even created.

Ok so the mistakes came for Shadowrun rather then Earthdawn.

WMS

[Carny]

Ok so the mistakes came for Shadowrun rather then Earthdawn.

WMS

Taking a hammer to the game designers for not being expert in every dang bit of fluff they write about is a bit pointless. First off, they didn't have a decade or so and hundreds or thousands of people micro-analyzing each phrase and sentence for technical inaccuracies. Of course, that seems to be the number one activity on these boards.

Orks are a species genetically related to humans. They aren't human. They aren't caucasian humans, or african humans, or asian humans, or whatever. They do have similar divisions among themselves, though. They are far more measurably stronger, tougher, etc, then any human group compared to another. Their biological norms don't have any more need to conform to human expectations then that of trolls or elves. Presumably it is normal for a female ork to bring to term healthy, fully-formed offspring, in multiples, after a six month gestation period. Whether it is some quirk of biology, or a magical whatsis from elder days, or whatever. Also presumably, ork physiology starts to experience advanced aging processes at some point around forty. Sucks to be them.

[WearzManySkins]

Taking a hammer to the game designers for not being expert in every dang bit of fluff they write about is a bit pointless. First off, they didn't have a decade or so and hundreds or thousands of people micro-analyzing each phrase and sentence for technical inaccuracies. Of course, that seems to be the number one activity on these boards.

Orks are a species genetically related to humans. They aren't human. They aren't caucasian humans, or african humans, or asian humans, or whatever. They do have similar divisions among themselves, though. They are far more measurably stronger, tougher, etc, then any human group compared to another. Their biological norms don't have any more need to conform to human expectations then that of trolls or elves. Presumably it is normal for a female ork to bring to term healthy, fully-formed offspring, in multiples, after a six month gestation period. Whether it is some quirk of biology, or a magical whatsis from elder days, or whatever. Also presumably, ork physiology starts to experience advanced aging processes at some point around forty. Sucks to be them.

Not really going by the stated values for orks, and running the numbers, the Orks carpet the earth. Ergo they are broken unless a "gimick" is thrown in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) You are fairly new here, taking Devs/Freelancers to task is a fairly common thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Same for the earth shift in LA, and the real world effects of same.

Actually the web and DataSearch takes minutes to perform not years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

As for races
Dwarf: Homo sapiens pumillonis
Elves: Homo sapiens noblis
Humans: Homo sapiens Edit sapiens
Orks: Home sapiens robustus
Trolls: Homo sapiens ingentis
The above shows that Dwarfs, Elves, Orks, Trolls are Subspecies of Homo sapiens aka Humans. Yes you can can Asian, African, Polynesian Orks, Trolls, Dwarfs, and Elves. Ergo all are Human by definition of Species, but SR4 uses the term Metahuman. Just like a Doberman, a Yorkie are both dogs/canines just different subspecies.

WMS

[Trigger]

As for races
Dwarf: Homo sapiens pumillonis
Elves: Homo sapiens noblis
Humans: Homo sapiens
Orks: Home sapiens robustus
Trolls: Homo sapiens ingentis
The above shows that Dwarfs, Elves, Orks, Trolls are Subspecies of Homo sapiens aka Humans. Yes you can can Asian, African, Polynesian Orks, Trolls, Dwarfs, and Elves. Ergo all are Human by definition of Species, but SR4 uses the term Metahuman. Just like a Doberman, a Yorkie are both dogs/canines just different subspecies.

WMS

Actually, Humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, so they too are a subspecies from Homo Sapiens. After the start of the Sixth World and the return of the metatypes, Homo Sapiens as a species moniker was no longer enough to identify humanity as a species. Hence the start of the subspecies categorization, which humans are a part of. Everything else isn't a sub species of Human, they are all subspecies of humanity.

(It is hard to write this clearly, trying to differentiate between the over-arcing species of Human, and the subspecies that is what Humans are in SR.)

[WearzManySkins]

Actually, Humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, so they too are a subspecies from Homo Sapiens. After the start of the Sixth World and the return of the metatypes, Homo Sapiens as a species moniker was no longer enough to identify humanity as a species. Hence the start of the subspecies categorization, which humans are a part of. Everything else isn't a sub species of Human, they are all subspecies of humanity.

(It is hard to write this clearly, trying to differentiate between the over-arcing species of Human, and the subspecies that is what Humans are in SR.)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Actually I took the species names from RAW SR4. I understand your point. Edit Damn it your are correct. Editing same.

WMS

[Aaron]

No until recently birth weighs are different by race, ie Asians have lesser birth weights, Africans larger birth weights, Nordic/Germanic larger birth Weights, Pygmies have smaller birth weights. Gestational time periods with all factors being the same, are the same for single births.

If by "the same" you mean "varies within a range of 37 to 42 weeks," then I agree. Of course, this varies with genetics. And who's got different genetics from humans? Orks, for one.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore, WMS. If you're trying to say that it's impossible to have a six-month gestation period because orks are actually genetically identical to humans, I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree unless you can come up with rather more convincing arguments.

[WearzManySkins]

If by "the same" you mean "varies within a range of 37 to 42 weeks," then I agree. Of course, this varies with genetics. And who's got different genetics from humans? Orks, for one.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore, WMS. If you're trying to say that it's impossible to have a six-month gestation period because orks are actually genetically identical to humans, I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree unless you can come up with rather more convincing arguments.

No what I am saying with a gestational period of 6 months, and 4+ babies, Orks carpet the Earth. Nutritional issues aside.

WMS