SINless, Is my view right? Options

[Dumori]

So from what I'm hearing the SINless seem to be the equivalent to the Jews early on in Nazi Germany. How close do you think this view is to cannon and your game worlds?

While this might be a strong parrell the similarities are striking I'm introducing some fresh blood to shadowrun so I would like a close to cannon view for the first few games.

[Sweaty Hippo]

In my games, they're like the lower class laborers of the 1850s; if someone went around killing them GTA-style, there would be a public outcry, but nobody of higher society bats an eyelash at the dangerous factory work and poor living conditions.

[Hatspur]

In my games, they're like the lower class laborers of the 1850s; if someone went around killing them GTA-style, there would be a public outcry, but nobody of higher society bats an eyelash at the dangerous factory work and poor living conditions.

That's pretty spot on. Also without a fake you really can't get anywhere in a sprawl outside of the barrens equivalent area or even take the bus. Arguably, it's impossible to have a normal High lifestyle.

[Sweaty Hippo]

P.S. To the OP, If SINless were like Jews in Nazi Germany, wouldn't Lone Star Agents and Corporate Military Units be bombing the hell out of the Barrens with nerve gas and stuff?

[Dumori]

P.S. To the OP, If SINless were like Jews in Nazi Germany, wouldn't Lone Star Agents and Corporate Military Units be bombing the hell out of the Barrens with nerve gas and stuff?

In early Nazi Germany. As in viewed as subhuman con-fined to ghettos(barrens) not allowed in to schools ect. Maybe the Jews even early that that not long after the passing of the neringberd laws (please forgive my spelling) in some respects. Also the star of David is reversed every one other that them has to wear identification (SINs) the parallel is quite strong form my understanding of the treatment of Jews shrtly after Hitlers chancellorship bar the persecution and violence to wards them.

As to bombing with never gas when was any ghetto in Nazi Germany treated like that?One or to where shelled after revolts but only death camps use gas as far as I know.

[Sweaty Hippo]

I meant with bombing the Barrens as in that the SINless are very numerous, and usually are heavily armed, and some are shadowrunners. So I'd assume that the SINless would start a war if somebody decided to "cleanse the world of them."

[Dumori]

Ah yes but I'm discounting the extremist Nazi views. I see there life as much more like early Nazi Germany as said. May be not that same addittued to wards them no groups going round smashing up SINless shops and such but if they did they would be dead nay way as any shop in the barrens has protection or gangs would have looted it.

Lets look at what the SINless have and are:
1) not classed as full citizens
2) have basic very basic human rights
3) no government support
4) forced to live in dread full conditions due to who they are
5) not normally let out of set areas and punished for doing so
6) poverty ridden
7) openly marked as who they are by lack of a SIN

There are a lot of similarities to the effects of Nazi law on the Jews I would post a list but I am unable at this time.

[edit] posted them below in new post due to differing content and due to the fact that I just copy and pasted stuff from the web which I know happened. Merge if you want.[/edit]

[Dumori]

On April 1, 1933, Jewish doctors, lawyers, police, teachers and stores were boycotted. Only six days later, the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service was passed, banning Jews from government jobs. .... From then on, Jews were forced to work at more menial positions, becoming second-class citizens or to the point they are "illegally residing" in the German Reich.

In May 1935, Jews were forbidden to join the Wehrmacht (the army),

unsure if this apliys in 2070

September 15, 1935 The first law, The Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor,[13] prohibited marriages and extramarital intercourse between “Jews� (the name was now officially used in place of “non-Aryans�) and “Germans� and also the employment of “German� females under forty-five in Jewish households. The second law, The Reich Citizenship Law [14], stripped persons not considered of German blood of their German citizenship and introduced a new distinction between “Reich citizens� and “nationals.� .

At the same time, the "Reich Citizenship Law" was passed and was reinforced in November by a decree, stating that all Jews, even quarter- and half-Jews, were no longer citizens of their own country (their official title became "subjects of the state"). This meant that they were deprived of basic citizens' rights, e.g., the right to vote. This removal of citizens' rights was instrumental in the process of anti-semitic persecution

In 1936, Jews were banned from all professional jobs, effectively preventing them from having any influence in education, politics, higher education, and industry. There was now nothing to stop the anti-Jewish actions that spread across the German economy

Between 1937 and 1938, new laws were implemented, and the segregation of Jews from the “German Aryan� population was completed. In particular, Jews were punished financially for being Jewish.

On March 1, 1938, government contracts could not be awarded to Jewish businesses. On September 30 of the same year, "Aryan" doctors could only treat "Aryan" patients. Provision of medical care to Jews was already hampered by the fact that Jews were banned from being doctors.

On August 17, Jews had to add "Israel"(males) or "Sarah" (females) to their names, and a large letter "J" was to be printed on their passports on October 5. On November 15, Jewish children were banned from going to public schools. By April 1939, nearly all Jewish companies had either collapsed under financial pressure and declining profits, or had been persuaded to sell out to the government, further reducing their rights as human beings; they were, in many ways, effectively separated from the German populace.

most information from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy...en_1933_to_1940

The Nuremberg laws against Jews (the other laws made that day are irrelevant) as by Wikipedia I as well as more anti-semetic laws prove my point as soon as I can find my book on this I will update as Wikipedia isn't the best source.

As you can see the prewar treatment of German Jews has some strong parallels with the SINless of 2070 the final alution only started to happen in the later war years and of these laws and treatment only Ghettos have a parallel with 2070. If any information is incorrect please inform me as I'm unwilling to delve in to my 1000 page plus book as it is in chronological order and can make finding fact like these a pain.

[hyzmarca]

SINless are more like this guy. They're the equivilant of stateless persons and illegal immigrants. Because they have no identification or paperwork they can't legally do anything. Everything they do has the be under the table and off the books, and thus illegal. They aren't forced into ghettos, either, it is simply that they don't ask for ID in ghettos. Of course, since refusing to identify oneself to a police officer when requested can be a crime, not having a SIN in well policed areas tends to be dangerous.

[Dumori]

I can see where you are coming from from a legal point of view. The huge numbers of SINless means that there is little to compre them to in the modern world. I find the comparison to discriminated minirtorys a good one as the goverment its self won't do any thing about this problem. Its not like all SINless want to be like that or ended up like that the fact that they are born in to the state and are viewed as subcitizans by goverments and corps makes them hard to give an equilerlent to. To gain a SIN one must pass a test showing they are use full to the issuer. Making the large global SINless population efecetivly traped where they are. The global SINless must number at least a mid sized contry if not a large one. Its not like they are small in number.

[AngelisStorm]

I think of being SINless as almost exactly like being an illegal immigrant. Your not supposed to be wherever-you-are, but there isn't much the goverment can do about you as a group, and your useful for certain things. Now add in a big brother type goverment (broadcasting SINs, forms of untraceable currency slowly disipearing), and the fairly easy accessability of large firearms.

[Snow_Fox]

not like Jews in Germany because there were rules and prejudices against them that made them into 2nd class citizens but there were laws about them.

I'd say more like illegal aliens. everyone knows they are there and will even do business with them but their lack of legal status severly limits them in what they can do, what they can own and it may well be that they can be exploited by unscrupulous employers.

yes I know you can find Germans who did that to Jews, like Oscar Shindler but there isn't a systematic serries of laws to surpress the SINless

[CanRay]

In fact, SINless people are "Probationary Citizens" if they're found by the authorities.

If said authorities decide to bother with the paperwork, that is, and don't just take said SINless into a dark alley and beat them for a bit for dreks and giggles.

Yeah, I really don't like Lone Star. Can't you guess? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Heath Robinson]

I never actually considered myself to be so damn positive, I always had myself figured for a cynic, but I have to say that the SINless give me a different vibe. They're free, no? They live in a free world where pre-existing social structures cannot so easily force themselves upon you and with no sense of entitlement to certain luxuries. The world of 2070, to me, is far less pretentious for the existence of the barrens and the SINless.

A real choice exists, as to the degree of security you're willing to trade certain amounts of liberty for. This I see as a good thing; playing one or the other is a meaningful choice for a character, even if only as an aim. The only bad thing about the SR world is that people have SINs and do not want them and people have no SINs and want them. The existence of SINs and those without them are not inherently bad facts in my opinion.

When we add prosperity into the mix, as well, we end up with a yet more colourful and meaningful set of choices.

[Jackstand]

Quote
In May 1935, Jews were forbidden to join the Wehrmacht (the army),
unsure if this apliys in 2070

I'm pretty sure that I recall that the SINless can join the military, but, of course, as soon as they do, they're not SINless, anymore. So, it's a relatively easy way for them to improve their lot. It's probably an appealing option to a lot of them, and is a good source of recruits.

[Shiloh]

I find myself wondering why there are so many SINless. If all arrested SINless (included those arrested for not having a SIN) are *given* SINs (albeit ones tagged as offenders) it tends to suggest that the Authorites *want* everyone to have a SIN, so how difficult can if be for Joe SINless to get hold of one? Given the yen for control that the authorities of 2070 seem to have, I'd've thought they'd be keen to sign people up to SIN databases. It's not like having a SIN gives you any *financial* rights to stuff like healthcare or welfare in 2070 UCAS at least; the only cost would be the maintenance of the registration bureaux and the database itself.

So maybe being SINless is a choice: it's better to be an underclass that The Man can't find to persecute than it is to be the willing victim of the system. Perhaps the freedoms of being SINless give more benefit than the strictures imposed on the lowest of those who attempt to live within the system: if they don't know where you live they can't charge you for tapping the water and electricity; you don't pay taxes, 'cept to the local protection racket, and that's a much lower taxation burden than the Government levies. Yes, life is difficult and dirty and dangerous, but maybe not much less than the bottom rung of SINner society, and compensated for by lack of interference.

This Governmental/Authority interference in your life is why being a SINner is a Bad Thing (negative quality) that refs need to play up to. You have to pay your taxes, inform the Government where you live and the rest, or eventually there will be a warrant out for your arrest, and then you need to be carrying false biometrics and false paperwork anyway, for any SIN check that you use your "official" SIN will flag you as a fugitive... You can't swan around on your official SIN without being tracked, and unless you falsify your biometrics any check on a fake SIN you use stands a good chance of finding your real SIN and tearing your fake ID apart at the seams.

[Wesley Street]

Your average SINless individual is equal to a modern day-laborer. They're second class citizens. They work for cash, don't pay taxes, have limited legal rights, poor healthcare and usually live in squalid conditions. And, ironically, the economy would collapse without them. However, it's also nearly impossible for the government or a corporation to track the SINless which makes it the ideal state of being for a shadowrunner.

[Synner667]

Although there are a few similarities between Jews and the SINless, they're not very similar.

Jews were identified and turned into 2nd class citizens [if they were lucky]...
...But they could work, travel, etc - if they got authorisation.

SINless aren't in mainstream society...
...They can't use the subway, open bank accounts, buy things, etc.

In effect, they don't exist.

[HeavyMetalYeti]

You also got to look at the fact that without a SIN you have no credit. If you have no credit, it cant be stolen. Yes I just had another credit card number stolen. Bunch of drek cleaning this mess up.

[sunnyside]

I'm in the illegal immegrant/dregs of society/homeless camp, though with a much worse deal than they have in the US. Remember these people are surviving out in the barrens somehow, and it isn't handouts. There are references to rather unsavory factories out there, and I imagine that's where a lot end up. Though scrounging in the garbage dumps is also likely popular. And the gangs likely wind up with a lot of what little they make through drugs/protection/vice.

A criminal SIN isn't much of an improvement, and I imagine most of those people end up out in the barrens again. Blending in with the truely SINless.

Some SINless get SINs (for example by joining the military or something), but SINers occasionally get strung out on drugs and the like and wind up among the SINless. If they then have kids their children will add to the SINless population.

I think that's the key difference there. In Germany the Jews were persecuted because they were Jews. But the SINless are a fluid bunch able to, in theory, change their lot.

[cndblank]

IMHO, if 2070 in the Sixth World is anything like today, then there would be mechanisms for the Sinless to be able to function enough that the Corps could employ/exploit them.

Most of the government functions have been privatized to the Corps. Corps don't want to service the sinless because they don't get paid for it. Local governments don't want to explain scare resources going to non citizens and non tax payers. I expect it would have gradually came in to being.

I mean look at our current illegal immigration issue, we (USA) could stop illegal immigration any time we wanted. You inspect and fine a company enough times and they will stop employing illegals. Stop the jobs and you stop the illegal immigration cold. Provide a foreign worker program for farm labor and there you go. But we don't because they allow business to produce stuff cheap. We have the laws on the books but don't provide enough funding for the laws to be enforced.


Likely the same in 2070, and what is tolerated and what will get you busted is fairly well known to both the Sinless and the local Law Enforcement Officers. Once in a while there would be some public show of enforcing the laws, but that would go away fairly fast.

Not being able to ride the bus would limit the usefulness of the sinless.
I bet that someone with a sin could the equivalent of bus tokens and pass them out for a nice fee.

Businesses large and small are not going to leave a large segment of their customer base unable to purchase their goods.
I also bet that with any Sinless population of any size there would have to be ways (like certified cred sticks and easy fake sins) for the Sinless to function. Good enough to ride the bus and buy some chips and soda at the local stuffer shack, but not good enough to let you go in to a nice mall without being busted for having a fake sin. Keeps the riftraft where they belong.

[ravensmuse]

SINless are more like this guy.

Entirely tangental, but that is a really interesting read.

[sunnyside]

Likely the same in 2070, and what is tolerated and what will get you busted is fairly well known to both the Sinless and the local Law Enforcement Officers. Once in a while there would be some public show of enforcing the laws, but that would go away fairly fast.

Not being able to ride the bus would limit the usefulness of the sinless.
I bet that someone with a sin could the equivalent of bus tokens and pass them out for a nice fee.

Businesses large and small are not going to leave a large segment of their customer base unable to purchase their goods.
I also bet that with any Sinless population of any size there would have to be ways (like certified cred sticks and easy fake sins) for the Sinless to function. Good enough to ride the bus and buy some chips and soda at the local stuffer shack, but not good enough to let you go in to a nice mall without being busted for having a fake sin. Keeps the riftraft where they belong.

I think the way it works is with the factories I mentioned. I wish I could remember the source. They're described as not friendly places. Cement wall, flagrantly obvious weaponry on the guards. But they're jobs deep in the Barrens. Presumably they bring in tons of people to get their sweatshop on.

[CanRay]

Lots of Call Centres probably use SINless and pay them less than the pitiful minimum wage the Goverments demand.

At least, that's how I run it.

[imperialus]

I think the way it works is with the factories I mentioned. I wish I could remember the source. They're described as not friendly places. Cement wall, flagrantly obvious weaponry on the guards. But they're jobs deep in the Barrens. Presumably they bring in tons of people to get their sweatshop on.

I also picture corp owned buses showing up at the edge of Redmond every morning and calling for a bunch of people who want work for the day. It might be cleaning streets, doing warehouse work, stuff like that.

"I need 20 Orks who want to get paid thirty bucks for a days work!" sort of thing. I can also imagine a lot of companies that contract out day laborers who've received a minimal background check (no criminal SIN basically) and then fire them off for the day to whoever needs them. I know that when I was working at Home Depot they used to hire day laborers to help unload stock and whatnot when receiving got backed up.