[X] My Assistant

[WearzManySkins]

*takes a deep breath*
Ok the previous iterations of this spreadsheet had all the current of that time data and no omissions and or bugs.

But since then everyone has added the current data for the new books of that time, and did not fix the multitudes of issues that they created. Then another berk(s) comes along, adds more new book data and does not even bother to attempt to fix the previous issues and at the same time adds even more issues.

Also I believe including the data for equipment will get this slapped down by the owners of the Copyrights/Trademarks/Licenses.

This is not even close to 80% finished. Interesting coding but still no attempts to resolve/fix the previous issues.

WMS

[cndblank]

Nice job!

Thanks!

The only thing it really needs is a way to print it all out on a couple of sheets of paper.

[Feshy]

Also I believe including the data for equipment will get this slapped down by the owners of the Copyrights/Trademarks/Licenses.

This is actually a hugely messy and tricky area that I thought about when Kairo first suggested adding the equipment data. Is using tables and stats in this manner "fair use?" (probably not.) Is it restricted use? (Maybe? It could possibly be considered some sort of derivative work?) Does the intentionally ambiguous area of copyright law that is neither fair use nor restricted use still exist in modern American copyright law (depends on who you ask), if so does this use fall into that area, and if so, what would the courts decide about it? Does our spreadsheet count as "a computer program," as the rights to all Shadowrun software is owned by someone else? Copyright law in the US is actually a huge mess right now. Things like this are ambiguously defined; the sort of thing that currently would require being worked out in the courts, if you wanted a strict legality check. That would be a bad way to go for everyone involved (except the lawyers.)

The reality is, this is just a helpful spreadsheet with some tables from the back of the books. Whatever its official legal status is, it's clearly not a direct threat to book sales for catalyst; if anything it's a helpful tool to supplement them. It's even more clearly not a threat to any software put out by the current owners of the software license (Microsoft?) since it only addresses the PnP version of the game. So it's unlikely that anyone would complain, unless they are trying to control their IP very, very tightly. Equally unlikely (in my opinion) is that anyone would give us permission to use the stats. Whether or not Catalyst even could do that, and under what terms, would probably have to be worked out by their lawyers with the people they themselves are licensing Shadowrun from, and even more lawyers to draw up terms that distinguish a spreadsheet from a computer program. Additionally, the act of giving us permission, if it could somehow avoid the army of lawyers and contracts (who would even sign them if it came to that? We're anonymous posters with a bit of free time!) it might carry legal ramifications.

So, without clear legal guidance, I go with the following rule of thumb:

Until someone with rights to the work complains, don't worry about it. If they do complain, remove the tables.

Of course, I am not a lawyer, I am not a copyright lawyer, and I'm certainly not your lawyer, so this in no way constitutes legal advice. And I very well could be dead wrong; this may be a very clear case of violation according to some statute I've never heard of or not properly understood, or some case law (maybe the recent Harry Potter Lexicon ruling?) Even so, I think it's hard to go wrong with the rule of thumb I posted above.

Preemptively worrying about copyright issues makes sense if copyrighted work is part of your business plan. It makes much less sense if you're just a couple of internet posters trying to make a useful tool for yourselves. Someone will tell us if we cross a line they're not comfortable with, and the worst that happens is we delete some of Kairo's hard work (which would suck, but only as much as deleting it right now on the off chance it's a problem would suck.)

Edit: I just wanted to re-iterate that if someone who owns the work does complain, the tables come out immediately. All the talk of legal ambiguity above isn't about pushing this issue; it's just there to show that projects like this don't really have clear legal guidance on these sorts of things ahead of time. Maybe in the future RPG publishers will open the rights to produce helpful tools like character generators within clearly defined guidelines, but until then such things walk a grey area, and what I suspect isn't a hard and fast line but instead criteria that very greatly from publisher to publisher.

[ThreeGee]

Also I believe including the data for equipment will get this slapped down by the owners of the Copyrights/Trademarks/Licenses.

Why just the equipment tables? The whole things derivative of someones elses work as are any other of the various SR tools floating about.

[WearzManySkins]

What I have seen is this, holders of copyrights/trademarks/licenses etc have to "aggressively" defend such or they lose all rights to same.

So many holders have acted like rabid pit bulls on crack/steroids in the past and present to defend such against losing their copyrights/trademarks/licenses etc.

As for the rest, time will tell.

Interesting no comments on the preexisting issues with the spreadsheet.

WMS

[ThreeGee]

What I have seen is this, holders of copyrights/trademarks/licenses etc have to "aggressively" defend such or they lose all rights to same.

It's no different than fanfics. Copyrightees 'aggressively defend" derivative works when they attempt to make money out of the new product.

Everything else is just advertising.

[Feshy]

Interesting no comments on the preexisting issues with the spreadsheet.

Some of this is hampered by the format -- it's very hard to "merge" changes. If someone makes several small fixes in an older version, and then Kairo adds a huge amount of equipment, then someone has to find a way to make sure one version gets the other's changes. This can be at least as difficult as fixing the problem in the first place.

What would help, I think, is a consolidated list of those preexisting issues so that they can all be fixed at once to avoid any merge issues.

[WearzManySkins]

Some of this is hampered by the format -- it's very hard to "merge" changes. If someone makes several small fixes in an older version, and then Kairo adds a huge amount of equipment, then someone has to find a way to make sure one version gets the other's changes. This can be at least as difficult as fixing the problem in the first place.

What would help, I think, is a consolidated list of those preexisting issues so that they can all be fixed at once to avoid any merge issues.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Data Search skills are at at low ebb it seems.

Issues

The packages cyberware suites do not give the bonuses to stats or skills. If you format the cells to have borders it makes it easier to see which column to add the stat bonuses to.

Genetic Optimization gives not bonus to any stats?
You will need to add/insert these to the Advantage list on Sheet1
Genetic Optimization (Body)
Genetic Optimization (Agility)
Genetic Optimization (Reaction)
Genetic Optimization (Strength)
Genetic Optimization (Charisma)
Genetic Optimization (Intuition)
Genetic Optimization (Logic)
Genetic Optimization (Willpower)

Then add/edit the following to the cells in the M2-M9 cells to implement it.

IF(AA2=-1,5,IF(AA2=-2,4,6+AA2))+IF(ISERROR(MATCH("Exceptional Attribute (Body)",O33:O46,0)),0,1)+IF(ISERROR(MATCH("Genetic Optimization (Body)",Cyberware_Bioware,0)),0,1)

Insure that each cell for each stat is changed to reflect that stat ie Body for Genetic Optimization (Body) etc.

Genetic Heritage/Genecrafted gives no cost savings on Genetic Optimization.

Why was the karmic analysis added? I must have missed that topic discussion?

Also add/insert to the Advantage list on Sheet1
Martial Art 1 5
Martial Art 2 10
Martial Art 3 15
Martial Art 4 20

Formula in sheet Bioware_Cyberware cell D2 is
=IF($A2="","",(VLOOKUP($A2,Complete_Ware_Table,4,FALSE))*(IF($B2="",1,IF(ISERR(FIND("A",VLOOKUP($A2,Complete_Ware_Table,5,FALSE))),$B2,1)))-IF($C2="2nd Hand",1,IF($C2="2nd Alpha",1,0)) + IF($A3<>"",IF(ISERR(FIND("P",VLOOKUP(A3,Complete_Ware_Table,5,FALSE))),0,$D3),0))

Why is it referencing cells A3 and D3?

The entire column of D has the same error?

Nice upgrade to the xls generator, but it still has the error where the Type O System quality actually makes Bioware cost 1.5 times more essence instead of half. I think I tracked it down to an incorrect sign in this part of the formula:
IF(Type_O_System,1+Bio_Essence_Reduction
should read
IF(Type_O_System,1-Bio_Essence_Reduction

WMS

[WearzManySkins]

Added the correct modifiers to the Cyberware suites ie:
Lone Star SWAT
Urban Kshatriya

Added
<Genetic Restoration>
Leonization۩
Life Span Expansion۩
Physical Vigor۩
Maintenance Session۩
Augmented Healing۩
Cellular Repair۩
Corrective Therapies۩
Revitalization۩

Added under <Phenotype Adjustments>:
Genetic Optimization (Body)۩
Genetic Optimization (Agility)۩
Genetic Optimization (Reaction)۩
Genetic Optimization (Strength)۩
Genetic Optimization (Charisma)۩
Genetic Optimization (Intuition)۩
Genetic Optimization (Logic)۩
Genetic Optimization (Willpower)۩

Added under <Transgenic>
Trans Alt Alien Look۩
Trans Alt Minor Modification۩
Trans Alt Moderate Modification۩
Trans Alt Severe Modification 1۩
Trans Alt Severe Modification 2۩
Trans Alt Severe Modification 3۩
Trans Alt Metatype Change۩
Trans Alt Sex Change۩
Trans Alt Animal Features۩
Trans Alt Chameleon Skin۩
Trans Alt Dynamic Chameleon Skin۩
Trans Alt Clean Metabolism۩
Trans Alt Chloroplast Skin۩
Trans Alt Dietware۩
Trans Alt Hair Growth۩
Trans Alt Sensitive Skin۩
Trans Alt Silky Skin۩
Trans Alt Skin Pigmentation۩
Trans Alt Bio Tattoos۩
Trans Alt Bone Density Augmentation (1-4)۩
Trans Alt Cat's Eyes۩
Trans Alt Chemical Gland۩
Trans Alt Exhalation Spray۩
Trans Alt Internal Release۩
Trans Alt Spit۩
Trans Alt Weapon Reservoir۩
Trans Alt Digestive Expansion۩
Trans Alt Echolocation۩
Trans Alt Elastic Joints۩
Trans Alt Enhanced Pheromone Receptors (1-3)۩
Trans Alt Extended Volume (1-3)۩
Trans Alt Gecko Hands۩
Trans Alt Gills (1-2)۩
Trans Alt Hands and Foot Webbing۩
Trans Alt Hearing Enhancement۩
Trans Alt Muscle Augmentation (1-4)۩
Trans Alt Muscle Toner (1-4)۩
Trans Alt Nictitating Membrane۩
Trans Alt Quills۩
Trans Alt Skin Pocket۩
Trans Alt Spidersilk Gland۩
Trans Alt Tactile Sensitivity۩
Trans Alt Tailored Critter Pheromones (1-3)۩
Trans Alt Tailored Pheromones (1-3)۩
Trans Alt Troll Eyes۩
Trans Alt Vocal Range Extender۩

Added:
<Nanoware>
Anti-Rad (1-6)
Cancerand Plus (1-6)
Control Rig Booster (1-3)
Implant Medics (1-6)
Nantidotes (1-6)
Universal Nantidotes (1-9)
Nanite Hunters Single System (1-6)
Nanite Hunters Universal (1-6)
NanoSymbiotes (1-3)
Nanotattoos (1-3)
Learning Stimulus (1-3)
Limbic (1-3)
Neocortical (1-3)
Recall (1-3)
O-Cells (1-9)
Oxyrush (1-5)
Trauma Control System (1-6)

Added:
<Bioscuplting>
Minor Modification
Minor Modification +1 Charisma
Minor Modifications +2 Charisma
Moderate Modifications +3 Charisma
Moderate Modification
Severe Modification 1
Severe Modification 2
Severe Modification 3
Metatype Change
Sex Change


WMS

[Chrysalis]

Would it be reasonable on adding gear builder into this project? The only thing missing off of it is cyberware and needs help with the Advanced Lifestyle options being folded into the excel sheet.

The gear builder is the most comprehensive gear listing I have seen. However its purpose is to operate as a master list. I suppose if I had an equipment acquisition programme I could have done the data entry by that.

Derivation involves that you take piece of something and change it. For example Kaj Stenvalls images of anthropomorphic ducks are not Donald Duck, but are derivations of that style and character. A listing of gear mostly copied from the backs of books into an excel sheet is not derivation.


Thoughts?

-Chrysalis

[WearzManySkins]

Would it be reasonable on adding gear builder into this project? The only thing missing off of it is cyberware and needs help with the Advanced Lifestyle options being folded into the excel sheet.

The gear builder is the most comprehensive gear listing I have seen. However its purpose is to operate as a master list. I suppose if I had an equipment acquisition programme I could have done the data entry by that.

Derivation involves that you take piece of something and change it. For example Kaj Stenvalls images of anthropomorphic ducks are not Donald Duck, but are derivations of that style and character. A listing of gear mostly copied from the backs of books into an excel sheet is not derivation.


Thoughts?

-Chrysalis

No in addition to missing or incomplete Cyberware/Bioware/Geneware/Nanoware there are several formulas that have issues.

The book UnWired needs to have its gear/programs added like the customization of comm links etc.

As for derivation....I have seen many "owners" disagree with your statements, and some are artists.

WMS

[WearzManySkins]

Equipment section does not implement weapon mods from Arsenal, nor does the Comm link section implement customization and other things from UnWired.

WMS

[Kairo]

Equipment section does not implement weapon mods from Arsenal, nor does the Comm link section implement customization and other things from UnWired.

WMS

That's because the Arsenal weapon mods are implemented in the Firearms section.

[WearzManySkins]

That's because the Arsenal weapon mods are implemented in the Firearms section.

Under Firearms tab, selected weapon, the list that drops down for upgrades/accessory is incomplete from the list from Arsenal ie no heavy barrel, ceramic components, no change of rate of fire ie increase or decrease, chameleon coating etc. It also does not appear to track the slot avail or used.

WMS

[Kairo]

That's odd. The Arsenal list should be in there. Perhaps I uploaded the wrong excel sheet?

[bmcoomes]

on the magic tab you cann't enter in your initiate level, it was included in the protection.

[Feshy]

Why was the karmic analysis added? I must have missed that topic discussion?

Because I was curious if there was a huge difference between karma-based chargen and bp chargen, so I threw it together for my own use. There wasn't really a reason for it beyond that.

Glad to see that the collaborative idea seems to be working well so far; since I essentially stopped working on the sheet some time ago (darn that RL, always eating in to my virtual life. That can't be healthy; I'll have to find a way to cut back.)

[Xerxos]

That's odd. The Arsenal list should be in there. Perhaps I uploaded the wrong excel sheet?

If you upload the right one, could you add my living persona bit?

I could also add some of the things from my Advanced Lifestyle Helper to the lifestyle sheet (roommates, availability, price to buy permanent) if that's wanted.

[cryptoknight]

Just another note with regard to changelings.

The following Qualities/Negative Qualities are also available to changeling in addition to those in Runner's Companion but don't show on the Metavariant work sheet.

Per RC page 110 under Other Metagenic Qualities

Positives:
Astral Sight, Biocompatibility, Double Jointed, High Pain Tolerance, Magic Resistance, Natural Hardening, Natural Immunity, Quick Healer, Resistance to Pathogens/Toxins, Spell/Spirit Knack, Toughness


Negatives:
Allergy, Asthma, Albinism, Biosystem Overstress, Disease Carrier, Gene Freak, Low Pain Tolerance, Nano Intolerance, Reduced (Sense), Sensitive System, Uncontrolled Metastatis, Weak Immune System.

[venenum]

When I download draft9, I receive the diagnostic message of there being no files in the folders.

[Fyndhal]

DamienKnight in this thread added a printable character sheet page to one version of this sheet. Any chance that can be integrated into the newest version?

[DamienKnight]

Its a fairly simple process to create nicely formatted character sheets.

The formula I followed, based on Wizdoc's work was:

Box everything in double thick borders
Titles are white text with black background
Lists are one large merged cell. The data inside is a concatenated list of items seperated by char(10) for carriage return.
Fill in boxes (Karma, overflow etc) Are simple formulas.

I would be glad to assist with this. Provide me with a copy of whatever sheet you want this added to and I will plug in a basic formatted sheet as appears in my version of the Shadowrun Character Generator.

Also, if you could review my work and comment/suggest or ask about anything, I appreciate the feedback.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=23735

[cryptoknight]

As from your post in the other forum... it seems you skipped Changelings/Surge characteristics...

Otherwise it's very very nice... we're closing in on a Heroforge equivalent for SR...

[DamienKnight]

I had a chance to check out the sheet from your community effort. Man I wish I had seen this before I started making all of my changes (at least wouldve saved time with the Wares dataentry!).

I really like alot of the things you have done, like breaking apart the races. I lumped race/infection since most infections are only allowed with a single race and it seemed easier at the time. The way you have done it is nice and clean.

There are some things to consider before adding a formatted CharSheet to your Collaborative Sheet:

Your sheet is designed as a character creator, not a character sheet maintainer. Meaning there is no place for character advancement that I can see (Please correct me if I am wrong). With that in mind, the formatted CharSheet page would only be useful once, then worthless as the character gets karma and raises skills...

My sheet allows characters to raise skills/attributes beyond creation using Karma. You would have to decide if you wanted to update your Main_Sheet in a similar way, or create a separate sheet for recording upgrades, or use some other mechanic that already exists (such as the Karmic value analyzer along with a Karma landmark. Basically when your character is completed you record the karmic value, then raise stuff as you want and observe the difference between your current karmic value and your landmark value).

No matter how you decide to do this, I would go about creating the formatted charsheet like this:

Create a 'Name' for the list of selected skills and their ratings, contacts, etc. etc. etc. This would make listing your values less like to be broken by future updates to your Main_Sheet, etc.

Create a hidden sheet that creates the necessary lists of values from the main_Sheet and other sheets.

Create the character sheets desired, with formulas linking to lists.

I need to hear back from the group about Character Maintenance and your thoughts on how that should be handled.

Also, my CharSheet uses small macros to manipulate the Print Area for the sheet, allowing the user to select which sheet to print. I noticed you have no macros on your sheet... are you adverse to adding them?

I also have macros for showing/hiding sheets based on selections on the Main Sheet. Basically mundane characters dont see the magic/technomancer page, mages/adepts see the magic page, technomancers see the technomacer page but not the magic page, etc. Would you be interested in implementing something like that on your sheet?

[WearzManySkins]

Ok the essence and costs for the Cyberware Suites are wrong in the book, a much promised errata will be addressing this.

Lone Star SWAT essence 2.52 costs 16,875
Lone Star SWAT Watchman Version essence 1.96 and cost 35,625
Shiawase Executive Suite Line Silverline essence 0.735 and cost 35,150
Shiawase Executive Suite Line Goldline essence 0.63 and cost 72,150
SK Cyberlogician Civilian Version(alpha) essence 1.925 and cost 180,500
SK Cyberlogician Deluxe Civilian Version(beta) essence 1.65 and cost 370,500
SK Cyberlogician Standard Military Version(Alpha) essence 2.415 and cost 313,215
SK Cyberlogician Deluxe Military Version(Beta) essence 2.07 and cost 642,915
Urban Kshatriya(Standard) essence 1.944 and cost 26,505
Urban Kshatriya Alpha Version essence 1.512 and cost 55,955
Urban Kshatriya Beta Version essence 1.296 and cost 114,855
Zeiss SenSation Line Basic Edition essence 1.35 and cost 25,200
Zeiss SenSation Line Livecaster Edition essence 1.05 and cost 53,200
Zeiss SenSation Line Executive Edition essence 0.9 and cost 109,200

I have added this value to the Sheet1

For Lone Star SWAT
When I use the standard grade I get the correct values, regardless of Multipliers handled additively

But when I choose Alpha Grade With Multipliers handled additively it get a essence of 2.016 and a cost of 33,750
With out Multipliers handled additively I get a essence of 2.016 and a cost of 33,750

But by independent spreadsheet essence should be 1.96 and a cost of 35,625.

Somewhere it is calculating the essence and cost incorrectly.

WMS