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> Low level pc's, need to start from scratch
BumsofTacoma
post Dec 18 2003, 03:05 AM
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Im going to start a new game with the players starting out as ordinary people, gangers, etc. BUt i need to limit the on character creation. was thinking of using point based system for character gen.

anyway. I am going to have them make characters, and then they will slowly progress into becoming shadowrunners.

Have any of you done this? Any tips?
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 18 2003, 03:07 AM
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Tell them that, set the Build Points at around 90-100 points, and tell them to use common sense during the character creation process. Then sit there and work with them as they piece the character together, and don't be afraid to say 'no.'
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Logo
post Dec 18 2003, 03:21 AM
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I'm in the process of creating a 70-point "starter" campaign. My previous 90 and 100-point campaigns just allowed way too much power, and my players need to learn to work with less so they actually have something to spend their hard-earned nuyen on besides another level in Deltaware Wired Reflexes :P
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Glyph
post Dec 18 2003, 03:24 AM
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Be sure to do more than just limit Build Points. You can make a min-maxed 100-point character. You need some additional restrictions. Just off the top of my head - no awakened characters, no Attributes higher than a base of 4 (before racial adjustments) - but with one of 5 allowed, no skills higher than 4 - but with one of 5 allowed, and resources are 90,000 :nuyen: , maximum, with Availability/rating limits of 5 and 4. But then give them some free skills (such as etiquette, stealth, etc.) - that way, they won't be buying the same "essential" skills. And you can give them double the normal number of knowledge skill points, too. And give them all an extra 4 level: 1 contacts. This will hopefully keep them from having the dreary sameness of most low-build-point characters.
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D.Generate
post Dec 18 2003, 03:36 AM
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90 and 100 points too much power? Damn then i must be one hard ass GM if my players who started with 125 points are constantly getting themselves FUBAR'd .... or maybe they are just dumb :wobble:
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Jason Farlander
post Dec 18 2003, 05:02 AM
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I would actually recommend BECKS over build point, as the system, by its nature, rewards having a larger variety of lower-leveled skills.

You don't need to disallow awakened characters -- the maximum skill levels suggested by Glyph will help keep them in check, especially if also applied to the maximum force of known spells for mages (which, incidentally, will help curb their relatively rapid advancement in a low-powered game, as they will likely be spending karma/money to replace their spells with more powerful versions in addition to acquiring new spells) These maximums, combined with the limited amount of starting karma they will have should keep them in check. I would recommend somewhere between 200 and 300 starting karma, such that being a full mage would cost roughly 1/3-1/2 of their total starting karma.

As a note, adepts will probably start the game being more powerful than anyone else. There are a few ways to handle this:

1) Accept it, but skew the group's rewards in favor of cash over karma to slow down their advancement until the rest of the group can catch up with them

2) Impose limits on the powers they can choose. Specifically, limit the level of powers with staged effects, such as improved ability, improved reflexes, and pain resistance. This is best done on an individual basis rather than trying to set up strict guidelines.

3) Limit the number of power points the character starts with. This would involve also reducing the cost to be an adept, and allowing the character to buy those initial power points with karma. For example, allow them to be an adept for 25 karma, which grants them a single power point. Each additional power point can be bought for 10 karma until they reach 6, at which point the character would either have to initiate to gain power points (if using MITS) or simply buy them at 20 karma a pop (if using just the BBB). Feel free to set the limit of starting power points the character can have at whatever you wish.

4) Simply disallow adepts (though I, personally, would avoid this option).
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Glyph
post Dec 18 2003, 07:38 AM
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Jason: I only said no awakened characters in my example because he specified that he wanted "ordinary" people - awakened is just not ordinary, to me. Normally, they aren't too bad, since in low build-point games, the cost to be awakened really hurts.

I like BeCKS too, although a system that encourages lower skills is kind of redundant when you have hard limits to starting skills as well. Some people have trouble using it, but I haven't had any problems - they do most of the math for you in the tables.


D.Generate: 125 points is actually about average - for a normal game, where the characters are professional criminals and other assorted scary fraggers. But 125 points is hardly an average Joe.
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Connor
post Dec 18 2003, 07:56 AM
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I think the easiest limit to put on the group would be to limit most or all of their gear/stuff to legal things. Especially with things like spell force, weapons, decks, etc...
Maybe some small time illegal stuff though...
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Sphynx
post Dec 18 2003, 08:37 AM
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Be VERY careful here Bums. The problem with most 'ganger' campaigns is that the players don't really improve.

Unless you're handing out buttloads of Cash, and providing nice white hospitals for gear installation, you can throw the idea of 'advancement through cyber' out the window.

Gangers also don't usually have any type of access to Magic Groups, so Magic users will also greatly suffer, giving you a game of primarily mundane characters with very little cyber and little hope of improving it.

Our game started as Gangers (some 10 years ago) and the only reason we're 'powerful' now is that when a character died, the limitiations at char-gen were made less restrictive, until our current point where not only are there no limitations, but we break rules on what we can start with. My little wimpy Ganger character I started with, even if he made it to 500 karma would still seem very weak compared to my now 175ish karma character.

Anyhows, personally if I were to run a Ganger level campaign (which I am considering actually), I'd use the following system:

All attributes start at 3 (adjust for racial bonuses/negatives).
Point System from SR-Companion.
No more than 20 points in a category (Attributes, Skills, Resources, Etc)
This includes Magic, use Alternative BP System.
Limit 50 BPs.

Sphynx
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Squirtduck
post Dec 18 2003, 08:45 AM
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I was actually kind of running into this problem as well, but on more of a player side, than from a GM perspective...

My solution...start my character in a formation stage (12-16 years old) and let the GM play a more open game than usual to flesh out weird and interesting details...

Not sure if this helps...
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BumsofTacoma
post Dec 18 2003, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph)
Be sure to do more than just limit Build Points. You can make a min-maxed 100-point character. You need some additional restrictions. Just off the top of my head - no awakened characters, no Attributes higher than a base of 4 (before racial adjustments) - but with one of 5 allowed, no skills higher than 4 - but with one of 5 allowed, and resources are 90,000 :nuyen: , maximum, with Availability/rating limits of 5 and 4. But then give them some free skills (such as etiquette, stealth, etc.) - that way, they won't be buying the same "essential" skills. And you can give them double the normal number of knowledge skill points, too. And give them all an extra 4 level: 1 contacts. This will hopefully keep them from having the dreary sameness of most low-build-point characters.

I was thinking of giving them some free skills depending on what they chose as a starting occupation. computer skills for the tech lead. maybe the guys an electrician, lonestar officer/security guard. salesperson get negotiations.

then im going to have to come up with reasons for them to start running the shadows, but hell, they might not end up running the shadows. I had a character who ended up being the groups npc fixer after a few runs. hehehe.

Also thinking of limiting skills depending on what occupation, attributes as well.
Hopefully they will all choose jobs that will meld into a shadowrunning career.
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bwdemon
post Dec 18 2003, 12:44 PM
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My recommendation is not to worry so much about what attributes/skills the characters have, but rather work from a dice pool, equipment, and spell standpoint.

Any character, depending on how lenient a GM gets with ambidexterity and other things, can quickly build up a massive dice pool to throw at opponents. The key to a low-power camapign is capping the amount of dice a character can throw at any given situation. This can be from pools, skills, spells, or 'ware, so a GM has to watch how certain combinations can stack up. Think about how many dice you want players throwing at most (rec: 10-12 dice) and look at how many things the character hits that range with. If they can't ever use more than 12 dice, but they use 12 dice for every single thing they do, then it could be a problem.

Equipment-wise, only allow maybe 3 essence worth of cyber and disallow any access to alphaware and/or bioware. This means that a character who wants to have wired reflexes 2 won't have anything else going for them outside of their speed. Granted, that's still a lot, but it isn't as bad as it could be. Keep initial firearms limited to pistols and maybe a shotgun or two among the group, as well as "normal" melee weapons (no monowhips, monoswords, dikote, etc.). Remember to enforce encumberance; too many GMs forget about this and wonder why their PCs are always prepared for every single possible contingency.

For spells, again think of the dice pool the character can throw together and the sorts of TNs that targets will be facing. Limit the number of spells points available at the beginning (rec: 20 max) so the awakened characters aren't unbelievably powerful compared to the group's mundanes. The only problem arises with adepts. They get 6 magic worth of abilities right off the bat. The pool limits should help out here, but I would recommend either disallowing adepts altogether or strictly enforcing a balance doctrine where any character that comes off as too powerful compared to the other PCs is disallowed. These guidelines will keep players from instantly choosing awakened characters, which seems to be the overwhelmingly common response by most players when faced with equipment and 'ware limits.
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Namer18
post Dec 18 2003, 02:13 PM
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When we ran a ganger campaign, I used the priority system and just put some limitations on what players could choose. If they were not magically active they had to have attributes as priority A. I also said that unless they wanted to play a rigger or decker they had to have D or E resources. If they played a rigger or decker they could have C resources, but they had to spend at least 75% of their money on vehicles or a deck respectively. By having lower skills and resources the mundanes were much weaker, but with the high attributes could raise their skills easily. The magic users were stronger then the mundanes, and I decided to balance that out by telling the players before hand that their would be a large number of anti-awakened groups who would violently react to magic users. This made the awakened characters think twice before using magic in most circumstances. The awakened members of the group were still a bit stronger then the mundanes. I would recommend if you use build points to make players put more points into attributes and less into skills. I would also try making the awakened start with half of their spell points or adept powers fetish limited, and they are not allowed to start with the fetish. Thus by controlling the ability of the players to get the fetish you can make sure the awakened don't get too far ahead of the mundanes at the beginning. Yup that was a lot of rambling.
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Solidcobra
post Dec 18 2003, 04:21 PM
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let's see now....

1. No awakened, they will heavily pwn everything else if they are allowed, even heavier than before
2. No skills over 5
3. No base attributes (AKA stats) above 4
4. No avaliability over 6
5. No street rating above 3
6. Max money: 90k
7. No more BP than 100 (Depends on GM)

there! now remember to limit your enemies too....
and remember EXTRA much: this is like being the DM of a lv.3 team permanently, you won't ever be able to let loose, they will progress SLOWLY and most games will be the same (Meet gangers, beat gangers, loot drugs and BTL, sell BTL and non-initiative boost drugs, keep initiative boosting drugs, repeat)....

and why, yes, i don't like low-powered games since they seem to prefer mages almost worse than the long, LONG term games do...... (thus the "no awakened" guideline)....

oh well.....
just check with your group if they like it

My players are of two different worlds right now, one of them hates SR to begin with since he feels that he doesn't do anything and that his character is weaker than AAA corps and dragons (yes, he used those two exact examples), he prefers to do some REAL difference in d&d, he also hates that magic isn't FAR better than everything else (again, exact quote)....
(that is why i don't play d&d as regularly anymore, it is always so fraggin' heroic, and magic is WAY, WAY too good)
the other player loves the game, he likes to develop his character and he likes the cyberpunk feel of it all, he also seems to feel with and for his character and the "minority complex" that most runners should get....


CHECK WITH YOUR GROUP FOR THE LOVE OF BIG D!
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krishcane
post Dec 18 2003, 05:54 PM
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I ran (am running) a 40 BP ganger-wannabe campaign online here (Cage Fight). You'd be amazed what the professional character designers here can crank out on 40 BPs. Yes, the characters suck, but they are playable and fun. It's been very flavorful. Opposition of course comes in the form of muggers, drunken bar patrons, and mundane dogs.

On the flip side, someone finds a Predator or a 100 nuyen stick and they are stoked!

This kind of thing ain't for everybody, for sure. My in-the-flesh gaming group won't even consider it -- they'd rather go the other way and design 200 BP monsters.

--K
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sidekick
post Dec 18 2003, 06:38 PM
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I was in a ganger campaign once that used Priority system

Basically, you got 75% of what was listed on the charts (accept for money, where you got 1/10).

No stat, skill, adept power, or spell above 4. Avail of 4.

Our group was 4 adepts, 1 wannabe rigger, 1 sammie (used cyberware), 1 shamanist (racoon, my char), and a big nasty Troll.

It was one of the better campaigns I have ever been in.

One of the benefits of the priority system is that it limits min/maxing more effectively then build point.
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Crimson Jack
post Dec 18 2003, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (krishcane)
On the flip side, someone finds a Predator or a 100 nuyen stick and they are stoked!


Hats off sir. That's cool as hell. I try to focus on the story as well. Not that it can't be done with a 200 point combat monster, but it's definitely a different spin on the SR world when you're looking at it from the bottom-up. I did something similar once and managed to capture 75% of my group's attention. I had one guy who couldn't quit whining (affectionately known as being a 'Luke Skywalker') about not having access to his tomes of magical power. I think secretly he really enjoyed the story, but there's always someone who has d20 syndrome and can't handle lower-powered characters.

Rollplayers vs. Roleplayers

*sigh*
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BumsofTacoma
post Dec 19 2003, 12:17 AM
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Ive have determined that they can only have skills,cyberware etc. IF it fits their job description. IE a stuffershack clerk isn't going to have boosted reflex's and pistols above 3. A computer tech isnt going to have combat cyberware or weapons skills. (without a damn good exuse)

Unless they all choose to make gangers or cops, there probly wont be any combat for a long time. As I said, I am starting them of at there day jobs, makeing them learn to role play, really get into these characters.

If they choose a magical path, they might not have any magic skills, or powers yet, maybe they just found out they have magic. Or someone else just found out.

The computer tech just aura reads someone without realizing what he just did, or how.

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Fortune
post Dec 19 2003, 12:26 AM
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QUOTE (BumsofTacoma)
Ive have determined that they can only have skills,cyberware etc. IF it fits their job description.

Because we all know that people never have any interests or abilities outside their occupation.
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BumsofTacoma
post Dec 19 2003, 12:34 AM
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LMAO I didnt mean to be that strict now come on. Of coarse I will let them have those frilly intresting skills to.

But that doesn't mean that they all secretly know NINJITSU! at 6!
HEHEHEHEHE.

I just mean I will give them base skills they have to have for that occupation, maybe a few free ones, and then give them about 15 or so points to spend on whatever skills they want as , well as you put, skills obtained in un-occupational manners..


oh and as for cyberware, well. they can have things that are leagal sure!
but anything else has to be according to job. or explained damn well.
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krishcane
post Dec 19 2003, 02:14 PM
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One thing I found disconcerting when I played a low-level campaign with some friends a couple years back.... we're all experienced martial artists and adventure-sport type people (like many of us here on DSF), and we're all in our late 20s. Suddenly we realized all our characters were younger, stupider, poorer, and less talented than we ourselves are in real-life. I guess at that point, the game really isn't about fantasizing being cool anymore. :) It's a lot more oriented toward cooperative story-telling and modeling human experience.

That said, I definitely wouldn't have wanted to role-play a day as drive-through clerk at the Stuffer Shack. All my low-level characters are wandering street people, so I can enjoy all the social interest that provides without the actual experience of the hunger pangs, smell of vomit, and the cold wind and rain that you just can't keep out of your shoplifted Salvation Army clothes.

--K
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Lantzer
post Dec 19 2003, 04:12 PM
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I've been planning a street level start-up for a while. This is what I've done:
Bear in mind that I don't have my game notes with me, and this is a work in progress. Game to be set in 2053, with a long term game in mind, where the PCs grow into serious Pros. Or at least get the karma, money and opportunity to - whether they do is up to them.

~70 pts using BP system.

Mages and adepts are a little cheaper, _but_ only get half the spell points or half the powers. Adepts will get extra power points granted to them as the game progresses upon GM whim (usually when they are in deep drek as way to get them out).
EDIT - up to their max of 6, of course.

No magical spells above rating 4

I've got a maximum allowable resources level.

Up to 6 pts of edges and/or flaws.

No gear above availability 4 or rating 4.
Gear gets street index. Yes, that makes some things cheaper.
No cyber above availability 4.
No alphaware or bioware available.
Used cyber is encouraged.

Some gear or cyber will not be available yet due to developement date.


Characters to be generated with the street-level game in mind.

GM has the option of awarding 5 extra BPs worth of freebies if he likes the Char concept. To help flesh it out.

The idea is to encourage folks to take the stuff that folks normally don't get because it's not nifty-keen enough, because they usually have plenty of cash.

I've got 4 character concepts already proposed for the game by potential players.

1) Jackrabbit - a hacker, decker wannabe. Street electrician associated with a pirate station.
2) NoNameYet - a shamanic conjurer. Rat totem, I think.
3) Jesus Chavez - Impress-the-girls physad.
4) Stingray - Samurai wannabe.
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kevyn668
post Dec 19 2003, 04:47 PM
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@ Lantzer:

Is this online? I'd be interested...
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nezumi
post Dec 19 2003, 05:07 PM
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Wow, a 40 BP game? With no skills, that's an average of 3 in every stat. They're worse than the average janitor.

My game is also 70 BP, seems like a nice, round number. Unfortunately, I forgot the availability column and limited it to weapons and magical gear of Street index LESS THAN 1 (so the heckler & koch SMG and a handful of pistols), and everything else 2 or less. Definitely limit availability, it makes life much easier.
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Rev
post Dec 19 2003, 07:06 PM
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I have always wanted to run a bug city campaign where the charachters start out as a collection of random people stuck in an elevator, garage, resteraunt, etc.

By the time they escape they can be competent shadowrunners.
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