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> Aid conjuring?
Joker9125
post Dec 18 2003, 07:07 AM
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Is it possible to have several people engage in the conjuring act at the same time? I was thinking of having my character hire about 10 NPC's with a conjuring skill of at least 3 giving me upwards of 30 dice and a buttload of karma. The goal wil be to summon a force 24 elemental. What would the rules for this be? Would they pool the dice or keep them seperate? What about drain would that be divided between the people? Good idea or bad?
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mfb
post Dec 18 2003, 08:03 AM
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ritual conjuring is an interesting idea, but there are--as of yet--no rules for it.
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Jason Farlander
post Dec 18 2003, 08:14 AM
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As mfb said, there are no rules for this. Even if they were, and even if you had 30 dice, you *still* only have a 2.31% chance of summoning a force 24 spirit.... and dont forget the 24D physical drain for every ritual member... mmm, delicious.
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Moonstone Spider
post Dec 18 2003, 11:06 AM
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Hmm, with each one also using spell pool you could get up to 60 dice which upgrades the odds a little more, but the drain would still be killing.
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Namergon
post Dec 18 2003, 11:25 AM
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Reminder : spell pool is just for that, spells. Spell pool is not usable for Conjuring purposes.
You can help with totem modifiers, Centering and spirit focus, however. A Power focus raising your Magic Attribute is of some help too, as any Sustaining focus with Increase Charisma Attribute...

Here is what I suggest to stay canon and nonetheless use a team to conjure a spirit:
- one person of the team is the conjurer, the others will only help him.
- the team can help him study the particular spirit he aims at conjuring (such preliminary study can earn him some benefit for conjuring itself, at the GM discretion).
- the team can try to use magic to make the conjurer a better conjurer : increase his Charisma Attribute through (Ritual) Sorcery for instance.
- they can help him concentrate during the long ritual (if elemental spirit is conjuring for instance), and help him use Centering if relevant.
- they can protect him during the ritual, so that he won't be disturbed nor harmed.
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Prospero
post Dec 18 2003, 12:24 PM
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Not to mention splash water on him to keep him awake... Conjuring a force 24 elemental would take a good 24 hrs of straight mojo... *whew* Hey, I bet this kinda craziness leads to being able to summon things like the Wild Hunt, wherein drain is measured by how many magicians die during the summoning...
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Zazen
post Dec 18 2003, 01:43 PM
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What're you going to do with a Force 24 elemental that you probably only get to use once?
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phelious fogg
post Dec 18 2003, 03:06 PM
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Are you kidding, I got ten services out of him...
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CoalHeart
post Dec 18 2003, 03:09 PM
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Do you realize, that summoning of an elemental almost always happens? What you're really making the test for is to see if you can control it. If you score 0 successes, you have an extremely angry and very very hostile force 24 fire elemental that only a pair of greater dragons could take down.


No force 24 elementals for you! bad bad. Stick to puppies or something.
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phelious fogg
post Dec 18 2003, 03:11 PM
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but who else will bring me my beer and women?
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CoalHeart
post Dec 18 2003, 03:18 PM
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Mind Controlled team mates, of course.
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phelious fogg
post Dec 18 2003, 03:22 PM
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of course, but they have all gone out to the seven eleven to get me muchies im a Rastashaman....
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Kage2020
post Dec 18 2003, 04:43 PM
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Yet 'ritual conjuring' appears so often in film, TV and books. Strange that it should not be incorporated...? (Images of Carpenter's Robin of Sherwood and a coven trying to summon Satan! ;))

Indeed, perhaps an interesting difference would be just that. Normal conjuration summons up generic examples of elementals or spirits, whereby Named spirits are a different matter? (Yes, I know about the use of 'names' in conjuration, but just thought that I would throw this out anyway...)

Kage
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Jason Farlander
post Dec 18 2003, 05:27 PM
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QUOTE (CoalHeart)
Do you realize, that summoning of an elemental almost always happens? What you're really making the test for is to see if you can control it. If you score 0 successes, you have an extremely angry and very very hostile force 24 fire elemental that only a pair of greater dragons could take down.


No force 24 elementals for you! bad bad. Stick to puppies or something.

Umm... I just had an *evil* thought:

Lets say a group of corrupt mages goes around and kidnaps hermetic full mages and aspected hermetic conjurors. Keeping the kidnapped mages under control using mage hoods and whatnot, the group starts tocast control thoughts spells on the mages. They drop the sustaining if they dont get enough successes to maintain a firm grasp, and keep trying again and again until they are confident their mind control is sufficient.

Once they have captured a good number of these mages, they have each one try to summon a force 30 elemental. They are kept awake via drugs and the use of control thoughts (they dont really care if the mages suffer magic loss). Each one will die, and the elementals, being uncontrolled, will almost certainly go free (rolling 30 dice vs a TN of 4, as per MITS).

Oh... did I mention that the corrupt mages are members of winternight?
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Spookymonster
post Dec 18 2003, 05:39 PM
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I could've sworn I'd read something about not being able to work magic while being under the influence of mind control. If not in 3rd edition, maybe 1st or 2nd?
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Joker9125
post Dec 18 2003, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
As mfb said, there are no rules for this. Even if they were, and even if you had 30 dice, you *still* only have a 2.31% chance of summoning a force 24 spirit.... and dont forget the 24D physical drain for every ritual member... mmm, delicious.

From what I understand when you use magic weather it be to cast a spell or conjure an elemental a rip is opened bteween the astral plain and our plain so you can pull the energies from the astral plain to our plain. Drain is simply the act of sewing up that rip. So as far as every member of the team doing the conjuring suffering the full effects of the drain from a force 24 elemental I really dont see how that makes sense. All of them are making ONE giant rip in space not 10 giant rips in space. If they all were making their own giant rips then they would each have to be conjuring a different elemental. But since all of them are only conjuring 1 elemental it makes sense that they are only making 1 making ONE giant rip in space and all 10 of them should be able to divide up the act of closing it. And thus dividing up the drain.

Thoughts? Comments?
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booklord
post Dec 18 2003, 09:39 PM
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I realize that there are no direct rules out there about it, but at least in my games a 24 force Conjuring library is something only an immortal elf or great dragon "might" have. It's well beyong the ability of even AAA megacorps.

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Jason Farlander
post Dec 18 2003, 10:31 PM
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Joker: Nope. First of all, as has been said, there are no canon rules for ritual conjuring, period. Second, check out the rules for ritual sorcery... whatever it is about using magic that causes drain, everyone participating in ritual magic suffers the full effects of it.

booklord: Good call about the rating 24 conjuring library... I guess they'll have to kidnap toxic shamans instead. Force 30 free toxic spirits are tastier anyway.
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Joker9125
post Dec 19 2003, 02:15 AM
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QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Joker: Nope. First of all, as has been said, there are no canon rules for ritual conjuring, period. Second, check out the rules for ritual sorcery... whatever it is about using magic that causes drain, everyone participating in ritual magic suffers the full effects of it.

First off it is true their are no cannon rules for ritual conjuring. Second conjuring and sorcery are completly different and are in no way related other than the fact that both are magical skills. That being said its safe to say that when making house rules you need to go by logic; is not what most or at least some of what I said logical?
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Fortune
post Dec 19 2003, 02:19 AM
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No, because precedent is already set in how Ritual Magic works with Ritual Sorcery. If Ritual Conjuring were allowed, it would logically follow that Drain would work in a similar fashion.

I still think a seperate Metamagic would be the best way to house rule Ritual Conjuring.
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Joker9125
post Dec 19 2003, 02:48 AM
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If that is the case what is the advantage of ritual sorcery? I would love to look it up myself but my GM took the books with him when he went home for christmas break.
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Jason Farlander
post Dec 19 2003, 02:50 AM
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Umm Joker? you said this:

QUOTE
From what I understand when you use magic weather it be to cast a spell or conjure an elemental a rip is opened bteween the astral plain and our plain so you can pull the energies from the astral plain to our plain. Drain is simply the act of sewing up that rip.


and then you said this:

QUOTE
and sorcery are completly different and are in no way related other than the fact that both are magical skills


If you're going to claim that logic is on your side, you might want to refrain from contradicting yourself.
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Joker9125
post Dec 19 2003, 03:08 AM
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I am not contradicting myself. Drain is the same for all magical skills. and what is the one thing conjuring and sorcery have in common? Suprise they are both magical skills! When I was reffering to how different they are I was reffering to how different they are in use and pratice (For example casting a spell and canjuring a spirit are two completely different things) I apoligize for not making myself clear on this point earlier.
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Jason Farlander
post Dec 19 2003, 03:11 AM
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QUOTE (Joker9125)
If that is the case what is the advantage of ritual sorcery? I would love to look it up myself but my GM took the books with him when he went home for christmas break.

The advantages of ritual sorcery are as follows

1) You can use ritual sorcery to target someone or something that is not within direct LOS (this requires a material link or a ritual spotter, and is a HUGE advantage)

2) With a sizeable ritual team you can make your spells practically unresistable. You dont really need to cast a force 20 manabolt when you can cast a force 5 manabolt with more successes than the target can possibly generate - rolling 30 dice, even against a TN of 5 or 6, is almost certain to produce more successes than any non-mage can generate using 5 or 6 dice at TN 3 - and a force 5 manabolt should be easy enough for the members of the ritual team to resist without the need to save ritual pool dice (watch out for that drain power of 2!)

3) I might be wrong about this, so someone correct me if I am, but the target of the ritual spell can be inanimate, such that, if an area-effect elemental manip spell is cast, those near the "target" won't even get a chance to notice the sending.

#2 is important... ritual magic isnt about making it possible to cast insanely high-force spells (afterall, you are limited by the rating of your hermetic circle or shamanic lodge), its about providing a lot more power and to a spell than a single caster is capable off.
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Namergon
post Dec 19 2003, 11:02 AM
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A lot of dice in the pool also mean potential BIG area of effect for spell cast by ritual sorcery...

Also, when casting a spell using ritual sorcery, one can spare dice so that the ritual sustains the spell a number of hours equal Magic x # spared dice. That's a cheap sustaining focus ersatz.
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