IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Chase Scenes- How to?, Chase Scenes on Foot- no vehicles
Aiolos Turin
post Jul 22 2008, 07:23 AM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 42
Joined: 22-July 08
Member No.: 16,157



I have scanned the rules, and please tell me what page of the Core book it is on if I missed it, but how do you handle chase scenes?
I tried handling it like normal combat...
Both Players have with 3 of every stat/skill.

1) Player 1 sprints twice (Two simple actions) Human- 25 meters + (X) net hits from Sprint1 + (X) net hits from Sprint 2)
With an average 3 str and 3 running skill, 6 dice, two sprints (totaly 12 dice, 6x2) I got around 4-12 extra meters each time.
If Player 1 Sprints twice, but Player 2 Sprints Once and Shoots Once- Player 1 usually only gets about 4-6 extra meters, which can easily disappear once Player 2 gets a few lucky extra hits on his Sprint dice.

2) Player 2 free action run (25 meters) simple action (Ready Weapon) simple action fire weapon (3 agi + 3 pistol = 6 - 2 attacker running) 4 dice vs Defender's 3 reaction + 2 defender running.

If the first attack misses, the Player 1 is always able to be just above 15 meters (-1 range, so attacker only gets 3 attack dice, and attack is forced to always Sprint (Simple Action) + Shoot (Simple action) but with so little attack dice, and defender able to go 3 + 2 = 5 and also full defense 5 + 3 (dodge, running, whatever) it's 3v7 or if Player 1 got the initative and good sprinting dice, 2v7 because he's in even further away from Pistol Range (-2 instead of -1)


But basically it repeats like this:

Player 1 is about 20 meters ahead, Player 2 sprints and shoots (until ammo gone) OR sprints and sprints (to keep in pistol range) and after Player 2's ammo is depleted, just begins to chase. Seeing as how it's incredibly hard to hit target you're chasing that gets a head start, it pretty much boils down to catching him and intercepting him.
This is the problem though... regardless of initiative, Player 1 is always away by a significant amount 10-30 meters, and every single time both roll, there is only a few meter difference.
The problem is

1) Player 2 runs (Human- 25 meters) closer.
2) Player 1 runs (Human- 25 meters) negating Player 2's movement.
3) Result is 0 difference in normal running. So everything is decided upon Sprinting.
4) Sprinting, with 3+3 (Str+Running) is only 6 dice, with an average 2 hits, which is only 4 meters. Since both have same Str and same Running, they BOTH get sprint meter boosts, practically negating each other. If there is a difference, it's only by about 4 meters, maybe 8 meters if very lucky. Far off from the 10-30 required to catch.

This is just annoying because after about 5 rounds of dice rolling and mathematics, I concluded it would take FOREVER to catch Player 1 or Player 1 getting away.


--------------------------------------------------------
Vehicle Chase Combat is very different. I tried to replace Vehicle Tests with Str+Running tests. This is a lot better, but I run into some mental blockage when it comes to things like shooting at the character, other forms of getting away (alley-ways, climbing fences, etc.) which could simply, in either Vehicle Chase or Regular Combat just be Agi+Climbing instead of Str+Running, but if both characters are equals- it doesnt really help until a failed climbing roll determines who won the Chase. Yet what if both succeed climbing several times in a row- they both just run around in circles jumping fences until someone finally gets away? lol
---------------------------------------------------------
I thought of making it only ONE Opposed test- Player 1's Run+Str vs Player 2's Run+Str- but this would negate shooting while chasing, catching- failing interception/melee, and re-chasing- etc.
--------------------------------------------------------
An extended test for both players?????
---------------------------------------------------------




How do YOU handle chase scenes on foot- when you need to include Ranged Combat, Melee Combat, Fences/Alleys, Buildings, Running-Sprinting-Meters.
I have thought of many ways, but there is a little too much dice rolling, a little too many Opposed Tests, and way too much of a mental handicap to remember the + and -'s of the Net Hits = x2 meters +/- difference in meters, constantly playing mathematician on the distance until one person closes in to atleast a few meters.

Any help would be appreciated. House rules are usually easier, but I am running into a lot of mental stumbling blocks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Riley37
post Jul 22 2008, 07:37 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 573
Joined: 17-September 07
Member No.: 13,319



Well, if the escaper is running away in open terrain, and the pursuer takes a free move and shoots twice, each shot has a low chance of hitting, but the pursuer gets a few shots at short range, then a few shots at medium range, then a few shots at long range. The pursuer has reasonable odds of getting a few hits somewhere in this process.

Running away from a person with a pistol, one has some chance of getting away without stopping any lead. Running away from an opponent whose weapon has longer range, eg a rifle, one better have terrain to break line of fire, or get lucky many, many times.

Usually, the escaper has their back to the pursuer. I don't see facing rules in SR4 RAW. I would houserule that escaper only gets full Reaction+Dodge if they can sense the attack.

So how would you like chase scenes to go? Realistic, cinematic, other?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Jul 22 2008, 07:44 AM
Post #3


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,865
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



I haven't had a problem with it. Though I've had chase scenes. Coupe reasons.

First and foremost the players are generally the ones trying to get away from superior forces. And so they'll quickly try to do things that do more than put an extra couple meters between them and their foes. For example leaping from rooftop to rooftop or into a window. Diving into some water and kicking on the internal airtank. Going through a crowd and then trying to blend in. That sort of stuff.

Also while goons will have a hard time hitting on the run. PCs typically don't. And will end a chase very fast that way.

Similarly goonish character might often stop/slow (removing the -2 penalty) and then fire twice or aim and fire. Remember you knock the other guy down if you do body or more boxes of damage. And this way if they don't connect the target is away fast.


Anyway you might not have the problem either for the same reasons. Only if you want to model two NPCs chasing each other would you bother with this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aiolos Turin
post Jul 22 2008, 08:19 AM
Post #4


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 42
Joined: 22-July 08
Member No.: 16,157



This helps a lot, thank you both.

Well, that is a hard choice between Realistic and Cinematic.
I enjoy making my Shadowrun games to be Cinematic like a movie, but more like a Realistic Movie (if there is such a thing, lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

For the Cinematics, I dont think I'd have a problem. It would easily be resolved with a spectacular move that the other character wouldnt be able to copy (Such as a single-test being the deciding factor- one character missing the roof-jump and plumetting 2 stories (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

It's the Realistic scenes I have a problem with. When there is no room for cinematics, no roof hopping, no water to dive in, no crowd- just two men chasing each other through an empty street, weaving through alleyways.

Currently, the scenarios are in an area like a popular city with lots of "dark alleys" and gritty streets, but in a very poor and torn-up city where most of the residents dont feel safe roaming the streets.

I'd like to be able to have a Chase sequence that deals with characters Running skills, making those important for the core- but having many variables along the way, such as Being shot at a few times while being chased, fences (Climbing skill checks), Dark Alleys at Night, boxes and trashcans and throwing them behind as you escape, things like this but all deciding if the character gets away or is caught. (In case both characters pass Climbing the fences, the bullets dont knockdown or hit, but the chase still continues without the need for "Running into a local gang.")

One of the coolest things I like about PnP RPG's is the use of non-combat situations and getting a good use and feel for the importance of skills other than Combat skills. Make it where Athletics are just as vital and important as Combat. I like having an "Escape Scene" in the same way people like having "Combat Scenes". Lots of fun decisions, cool actions, importance of higher/lower stats/skills, and the dice rolling to determine what happens.


Hmm... both of your posts is helping my imagination.

I want it to be more than just ONE opposed test- I want it to be as fun with the dice and action decisions as Combat- but I want it to lead somewhere after a few rounds.
I was thinking of having Simple Actions (only one per Round) such as "Get lost in the shadows/alley/night" which is a Infiltration vs Perception Opposed Test, or "Climb a fence/fire escape" Climbing Tests for both, etc.
This allows the one being chased to have actions that can let them "Get Away" but what I can't think of is how to handle the Chaser being able to do the same to catch the person.
In a chase scene, I guess I could have the Characters require 3 wins or [x] net hits against a Running vs Running opposed test?
I like the idea of giving the Character being Chased the opportunity to Stealth, Climb, Jump, but want to provide balance- how could the Chaser do an equivalent action besides Shoot a weapon?

What do you think?


Thank you so much again for your input. Any knowledge of how other's play Shadowrun helps because this is my first time playing Shadowrun, and I am a bit of a newbie at PnP RPG's.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Jul 22 2008, 10:35 AM
Post #5


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,865
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



Well with a chase scene first you have to set it up. Runners are often prone to standing and fighting. Usually pressure of reinforcements from the star is good for this (and if the chase drags on having a Wasp show up on the scene can wrap things up faster).

Though runners will probbaly be doing a lot in a city at night. THough I guess if you bar the windows and doors that limits things. One way to cut down on incoming shots is to remind them that there are cars and such.

The person doing the chasing is more reactive to what the chasee does. They could shoot or change their route in hopes of heading the other person off.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aiolos Turin
post Jul 22 2008, 11:15 AM
Post #6


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 42
Joined: 22-July 08
Member No.: 16,157



QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jul 22 2008, 05:35 AM) *
Well with a chase scene first you have to set it up. Runners are often prone to standing and fighting. Usually pressure of reinforcements from the star is good for this (and if the chase drags on having a Wasp show up on the scene can wrap things up faster).

Though runners will probbaly be doing a lot in a city at night. THough I guess if you bar the windows and doors that limits things. One way to cut down on incoming shots is to remind them that there are cars and such.

The person doing the chasing is more reactive to what the chasee does. They could shoot or change their route in hopes of heading the other person off.


Good idea.

I think I will invent some rule which gives the player (Chased or Chaser) choices on what to do.

Most likely a Threshold test for both characters with a threshold depending on where they are, where they go, and what they choose to do.
If Chased fails, they're caught. If Chased Succeeds but Chaser fails, they escape. If both Succeed the chase continues (perhaps to roof jumping or to a dead end)
Allow both the Chaser and Chased to take actions to gain ahead. Rather it's the Chaser doing a Intuition + Navigation threshold or opposed test- just something that makes sense. Let the players or the NPC's (GM) be creative in where they go, what they do, and how they get away. And if the situation calls for it where they are in an open field just running away, lol, just a simple Opposed Run test or Running + Body, whatever.


I also might dabble with the thought of rolling a die and allowing that to decide a random encounter, event, or obstacle.
Roll a 1 and it's a dead end for the Chased. Or maybe roll their edge or edge + intuition against a threshold, and no hits is a dead end.


I think I'm beginning to get an idea of how to do it. If I do end up making my own house rules on how to handle a chase scene (like they do Vehicle Chase Scenes in the book) then I'll post it just in case anyone else ever has the same problem.


Thanks for all the ideas and everything. It really is a great help to see everyone's responses and how their runs work.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Jul 22 2008, 11:30 AM
Post #7


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,865
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



I'd shy away from house rules. You're just asking to waste more time than it's worth explaining them to your players and then arguing them.

Likely a chase scene with rules as are will go. Run. Special check Run another special check, done.

In part because people are moving fast. In an urban environment moving, say, 36 meters will get you through and ally, across the street, something like that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 22 2008, 01:15 PM
Post #8


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



The only house rule I might suggest is limiting the characters to only 1 initiative pass per combat phase. Some-one who is wired, despite the bonus being not to agility OR strength, will easily run down/outrun their opponent using extra actions. I personally see this as silly, as quick reactions shouldn't help you too much if you're both just working your legs in a straight run.

Of course, still allow them to use the extra actions for shooting, throwing, dodging, jumping over obstacles, and who gets to start running first.

I remember my first ever SR3 Character's EPIC chase scene. He was attacked in a club bathroom, managed to punch the guy and run out the door. He then donned a shock glove and coat-hangered the assailant with it on his way out of the bathroom. Then the assailant's accomplice started shooting at him, and Raven (my character) had to duck into the crowd and escape the bullets and the bouncers trying to stop the trouble-makers (he ended up punching a bouncer out to get to the door). Then he jumped in a cab and was chased by a rigger and a mage, until the mage lightning bolted the cab to trash, and Raven had to run through suburban Seattle, running through laneways and jumping/climbing shortcuts over fences and through houses, dodging fireballs. The end outcome was him punching out a fatigued mage, dodging past a shotgun blast of the rigger and jumping into the rigger's sportscar and driving off (clumsily without a car skill).

Also, in your example, you might note that two characters who both have straight 3's in relevant stats and skills WILL match eachother roughly in speed. But in shadowrun, with adepts, cyberware, and skills, the playing field will not often be that level. And again, a chase scene will almost never be around a racetrack, so the environment will be very important. To use the matrix as a over-the-top example, Trinity evades the agent because she succeeds a jump that he can't/doesn't manage to follow (diving across a street and through a window).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Jul 22 2008, 01:24 PM
Post #9


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,865
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



By the way there is some debate on how sprint actions work. Personally I suggest adding the extra distance to the specific pass in which the spring action is used. But some people say you only get 1 or 2 sprint actions, or that it should be divided out (producing weird effects).


Also one thing about chase scenes being big that is good in my opinion is that more variety of skills and cyberware becomes useful. Things like balance tails and the like.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
psychophipps
post Jul 22 2008, 02:38 PM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,192
Joined: 6-May 07
From: Texas - The RGV
Member No.: 11,613



Best advice for a single person being chased by a group? Send more ninjas. No, really.

Best advice for a one-on-one chase? Lots of modifiers for stuff like terrain/crowding/etc. It should boil down to much more than just a few sprint rolls to evade an attacker running through a crowded place like Seattle. Random wino staggering from around that next corner? Yes, please. Running right through a tense drug deal? I'll take one of those too. Also, if you're dodging gunfire even a little bit then you're not really sprinting anymore.

Hope this helps.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 22 2008, 03:18 PM
Post #11


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



Also, allow a character to use lots of different skills, not just the athletics group. If the chase is through a crowd, cut the speed of movement by 20% or even half and then allow the character to make a Disguise (i rule that this is the skill for blending into crowds), Shadowing or Infiltration test and allow those hits to be used to increase speed just like a sprint action. Unarmed Combat is cool too, if you need to throw bystanders out of the way. Also, a part of a good chase scene is strength - If you can shoulder a door down in one try then you've just opened up a new escape route. And if you've got enough distance and the environment allows it, you can cover your retreat by blocking doors with obstacles, throwing heavy objects down stairs, throwing people into your assailant. Hell, a troll in a chase scene is basically the Juggernaut, bitch.

And don't forget that running frantically through a decently rated area chased by gun toting assailants (or alternatively, YOU could be a gun toting assailant) will probably be called in by concerned citizens/caught by surveillance systems and drones/seen by a beat cop, or even a local gang or syndicate soldiers. All of a sudden the chase can go from a Bourne/Casino Royale style public chase scene to something where you throw on the benny hill theme and suddenly have a whole lot of parties joining in on the fun. Hell, curious spirits might even get involved.

Drones can really throw interest to the mix, too. If one of the runners/persuers have drone support (aerial, ideally), you can use surveillance capabilites to keep track of your opponents position. Not to mention that suppressive fire will really break down some-one's ability to travel. You don't even need a drone for that. If you're in a chase, slinging a full auto burst of suppressive fire can really force people to take cover and slow down.

Done properly, I find foot-chases a lot more fun and stimulating than straight combat. As a shadowrunner, I often think of the police as Matrix agents. "You run. You run your ass off."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 08:42 PM
Post #12


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,664
Joined: 21-September 04
From: Arvada, CO
Member No.: 6,686



Your math is wrong. There is no +2 bonus to defending against ranged attacks for running.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eryk the Red
post Jul 22 2008, 09:20 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 633
Joined: 23-February 06
Member No.: 8,301



Yes there is. Check your book. It's in there.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DireRadiant
post Jul 22 2008, 09:23 PM
Post #14


The Dragon Never Sleeps
*********

Group: Admin
Posts: 6,924
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,667



QUOTE (Aiolos Turin @ Jul 22 2008, 02:23 AM) *
I have scanned the rules, and please tell me what page of the Core book it is on if I missed it, but how do you handle chase scenes?

.....


Any help would be appreciated. House rules are usually easier, but I am running into a lot of mental stumbling blocks.


Look at page 151 at the Interception Rules. It applies to characters attempting to move out of combat. Hit them with the gun.

Also consider the fact that occasionally one will gain initiative over the other and move first.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 09:31 PM
Post #15


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,664
Joined: 21-September 04
From: Arvada, CO
Member No.: 6,686



Well damn, I'm batting 0 for today.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jklst14
post Jul 23 2008, 12:00 AM
Post #16


CosaNostra Deliverator
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 346
Joined: 29-January 05
From: Philadelphia, PA
Member No.: 7,034



Dramatic foot chase scenes work best when there are no magicians around since Spirits change everything completely with their powers and their ability to move crazy fast in Astral Space then Materialize right on top of you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 23 2008, 02:19 AM
Post #17


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



QUOTE (jklst14 @ Jul 22 2008, 07:00 PM) *
Dramatic foot chase scenes work best when there are no magicians around since Spirits change everything completely with their powers and their ability to move crazy fast in Astral Space then Materialize right on top of you.

Chase scene creates mana warp?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Jul 23 2008, 03:17 AM
Post #18


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,865
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



Eh spirits are alright to throw in. All the smart runners pack some kind of elemental attack for such occasions. Remember what you learned from Ghostbusters, spirits don't like electricity.

Actualy they can serve a good purpose in keeping chase scenes from getting to long. Like Wasps and drones, they are something that the runners have to sweat showing up when they're on the run. So they don't have time to screw around (or stand and fight). They need to get moving.

So for example if you want to have a dramatic chase scene but don't want to spend all day at it have something like.

0 time, Runners get caught red handed by Star (give them a fair chance not too, but lets say they do anyway), at this point the Runners would only be trying to escape two officers on foot and two officers on bikes, but they know that reinforcements are en route.
turn 4 single air elemental arrives on scene, engages whichever runner is considered the most likely to injure an officer by dispatch
turn 8 Aerial drone arrives from West. Will attempt to snipe first runner it comes to barring a threat to an officer somewhere that it'd get sent to.
turn 12 (By now things have been going a while in RL if not game time), Wasp on patrol arrives in from the North. Second drone from the East. Squadcar from the south and another air elemental drops in.

That progression would be more appropriate for someplace downtown or AAA/AA or if LS suspected something and forces were spread out in the general area.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
noonesshowmonkey
post Jul 23 2008, 05:05 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 393
Joined: 2-July 07
Member No.: 12,125



QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 22 2008, 11:18 AM) *
Also, allow a character to use lots of different skills, not just the athletics group.


Methinks this is the best advice in this thread.

When I run chase scenes I generally have it resolve in 3 to 5 phases of sprint checks or what have you. Each phase can involve a supplemental check of some kind. Athletics to vault over a fence, unarmed combat to throw to the ground the cop that just appeared from around the corner, stealth to juke into an alley unseen, athletics to leap over a parked car, streetwise to know the shortcut, ettiquette to flash the right gangsigns to get some gangers to rough up your chaser...

Look for ways to bring the character's skills into play at all times. Be as descriptive of the situation as possible to ensure that a player has things to work with. Make sure that they know that there are street lights, trash on the ground, parked cars, parking meters, bystanders, alley ways, store fronts etc. Throw obstacles in their way as a method of forcing the scene to resolve - the player either uses the obstacle to their advantage and gets farther away OR fails and the enemy closes with them.

Vanilla opposed checks are only done in my game when the action is not of primary concern. If the player(s) involved are the current focus of the action then I make sure that the action has a lot of character and variety. Who needs to follow the rules to the letter?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 08:02 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.